Monday, October 12, 2009

Pseudo-history at Dargy museum

[Along with a number of other masochists, including the regular contributors to this blog Edward Ashby and Matthew Dentith, I've been involved for the last year or so in monitoring the activities of the pseudo-historians who argue, for reasons that are more political than scholarly, that New Zealand was first settled by ancient Celts, or South Americans, or Chinese, or 'Waitaha' - by anyone, it seems, but Maori.

Up until now, the pseudo-historians have been discovered lurking in trashy giveaway papers like the Franklin E Local, or on badly-designed websites that tend to disappear when they're subjected to scholarly scrutiny. Yesterday, though, I was dismayed to discover that pseudo-history has gained a foothold in one of New Zealand's larger provincial museums.

What follows is the text of an e mail I've just sent to the director of Dargaville museum: if you feel moved to send your own complaint, you can reach her at]

I am e mailing you because I visited Dargaville museum yesterday, and was perturbed by your institution's treatment of New Zealand prehistory.

My concerns focus on the presentation and interpretation of the large pou which forms the centrepiece of your room of prehistoric artefacts. Because I am going to take issue with many of the claims it makes, I will quote the caption which accompanies the pou in full:

Pouto Ki Rongomaraeroa

This ancient 2.7 metre pou carved with stone implements from kauri was discovered in sand dunes near Pouto Point after a storm in December 1991. It is thought to have been the right hand entrance of a Waitaha village known as Matuinga.

The carving, called Pouto Ki Rongomaraeroa, is the only one of its kind to be restored and put on display in a public place.

It is different in type and design to Maori carvings, reinforcing the theory that the Waitaha had different origins and a longer history in New Zealand than Maori. The Waitaha lived in settlements around much of New Zealand's coast.

The carving was found by Dargaville woman Maxine Stringer, and after specialised preservation by Auckland University it was returned and installed in the Museum during a dawn ceremony led by Waitaha kaumatua (elder) Patrick Ruka in December 1996

A storm in 1950 uncovered the remains of a Waitaha village the carving probably belonged to, but sand covered the site again before excavation could take place.

The caption I have quoted gives the impression that there is an intellectually credible theory which holds that a people called Waitaha inhabited New Zealand before Maori and still live here today. I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said that there is not a single scholar of New Zealand's prehistory who would endorse such a 'theory'.

When historians, archaeologists, museum curators, and experts on whakapapa talk about Waitaha, they are referring to the iwi which originally inhabited the South Island. The Waitaha were a Maori tribe, not a non-Maori people. Their control of the South Island was ended by the arrival of first the Ngati Mamoe and then the Kai Tahu tribes. First the Ngati Mamoe absorbed Waitaha through conquest and intermarriage, and then Kai Tahu absorbed Ngati Mamoe through the same process.

Although some Waitaha stories, songs, and sacred places were incorporated into Kai Tahu culture, the group had long since ceased to exist as a distinct entity by the time Europeans arived in the South Island in the late eighteenth century. The 1994 Treaty settlement between Kai Tahu and the Crown affirmed that, because they had taken over the land, absorbed the people they had found there, and lived in possession of the land for hundreds of years, Kai Tahu were the tangata whenua of the territory that was originally inhabited by Waitaha.

Your museum's claim that Waitaha were a pre-Maori people who lived all around New Zealand seems to derive from a series of very eccentric books published by a man named Barry Brailsford. In the 1980s Brailsford enjoyed a reputation as a serious researcher into New Zealand prehistory, but at the beginning of the 1990s he began to make a series of very strange claims about the existence of a hitherto-unknown 'nation of Waitaha'.

According to Brailsford, this 'nation' had been established in New Zealand thousands of years ago by a technologically advanced people with supernatural powers who had journeyed across the ocean from South America to these islands. The people of Waitaha supposedly built pyramids, huge stone statues, and stone roads in their new home, but they were pacifists, and were eventually conquered by the ancestors of the Maori. Brailsford claimed that he was given his 'information' on the 'nation of Waitaha' from a handful of survivors of the nation, but critics like Kai Tahu leader and historian Tipene O'Regan have pointed out that most of these 'Waitahans' were actually Pakeha.

Brailsford's 'theory' of a Waitaha 'nation' has been treated with disdain by serious scholars of New Zealand's past. Brailsford's critics have pointed out that it is very unlikely that a large, technologically advanced civilisation existed in New Zealand thousands of years ago.

The importation of rats and large-scale fires are almost always corollaries of the human settlement of virgin islands, yet analysis of pollen spores shows that our forests were largely undisturbed by man-made fire until less than a thousand years ago, and analysis of ancient seeds suggest that rats did not reach our shores until about the same time. No human remains or artefacts have been found close to, let alone below, the layer of ash left by the last eruption of Taupo eighteen hundred years ago. The huge ancient cemeteries, buried roads, and massive ruined stone structures we would expect to find if the Waitaha theory were true have never turned up. Michael King summed up the attitude of scholars and Maori when he wrote in his Penguin History of New Zealand that 'not a skerrick of evidence' exists to support the theory of a pre-Maori Waitaha nation.

I have been unable to find any information about the 'Waitaha kaumatua' Patrick Ruku mentioned in the caption in your museum. I assume, though, that he is one of the handful of people who have identified with Barry Brailsford's mystical ideas about New Zealand pre-history. The caption in Dargaville museum claims that the pou found on Pouto peninsula is 'different in type and design' to Maori carvings. This is a very odd assertion, because both the function of the artefact and the motifs carved onto it are immediately recognisable as Maori. Anyone who visits a large collection of Maori carvings - the collection in the Auckland War Memorial Museum's Maori Court, for instance - will notice many large carvings which were intended to stand either as gateways to important spaces - marae, cultivations, or burial grounds - or as markers denoting boundaries of one sort or another.

The spiral motif carved on the pou is ubiquitous in Maori art. The relative simplicity of the carving may indicate that the pou belongs to the early period of Maori culture and art, before the more intricate carving style made famous by meeting houses like the Auckland museum's Hotunui evolved. Many examples of early Maori carving have been found in Northland - the Kaitaia lintelpiece, which is the oldest known Maori artefact, is a good example. There is no reason to treat the pou at Dargaville museum as the product of a non-Maori culture.

The reference to the University of Auckland in your caption implies that the institution is in some way associated with and supportive of claims about a 'Waitaha' civilisation. The pou may have undergone some work in the conservation lab at the university's anthropology department, which is open to outsiders, but I am certain that none of the staff or students at the department would want to be associated with the claims you are making about New Zealand prehistory.

I was saddened not only by your interpretation but by your presentation of the pou found at Pouto. It is normal for museums to display pou in an upright position. Pou were intended to stand upright, and museum visitors have a better chance of understanding the function and meaning of an object if it is displayed in the way its makers intended. There are cultural as well as educational reasons for displaying pou upright: because of the mana that the objects had, many Maori find it offensive to see them prostrate. Instead of displaying the Pouto pou in a manner that is educationally and culturally appropriate, Dargaville museum has chosen to lay the object in a container that resembles a glass-topped coffin.

After seeing the pou and the caption accompanying it, I talked with a member of the Dargaville museum staff. When I asked her how the museum could justify its claim about a pre-Maori Waitaha people, she told me, very firmly, that archaeologists had uncovered 'pre-Maori' settlements during digs 'down on Pouto peninsula'. Compared to the rest of Northland, Pouto peninsula has received fairly intensive archaeological investigation, but none of the site surveys and excavations conducted in the region has ever uncovered signs of a pre-Maori civilisation.

When I asked the staff member whether she was aware the scholarly community rejected the idea of a pre-Maori people, she replied 'Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?' She explained that Maori communities and the archaeologists and historians who work with them have a 'vested interest' in suppressing information about a pre-Maori people. When I asked her whether the Dargaville museum had consulted the Ngati Whatua subtribe Te Uri o Hau, who are the tangata whenua of the Dargaville area, about the Pouto pou, the staff member replied that 'the Maoris[sic] aren't interested'.

When I examined the rack of books offered for sale near the entrance to your museum, I was unable to find a single text by a trained historian or archaeologist. I did, however, find two books by Gary Cook, a self-styled expert on 'mystic realms' and 'alternative history' who wanders the backblocks of New Zealand searching for ley lines and 'energy sites'. It goes without saying that Cook's work is not normally found in museum bookshops. In the space where visitors can watch 'educational' DVDs, I found a copy of a 'documentary' called Who Was Here Before Us? in which Cook, Brailsford and a series of other pseudo-scholars expound their strange ideas.

Dargaville museum is a beautifully situated institution with some fine objects in its permanent collection. It has the potential to play an important role in educating New Zealanders about their past. At present, though, the museum is engaged in misrepresenting a large part of our nation's past by promoting the absurd Waitaha myth, peddling works of pseudo-scholarship, and answering visitors' questions with misinformation. I believe that the museum should rectify these faults by forging relationships with scholars experts in New Zealand's pre-history, and with the tangata whenua of the Dargaville area. Museums have a responsibility to represent the past accurately, and under the Treaty of Waitangi they also have a responsibility to work in partnership with Maori when they store and display taonga like the Pouto pou.

I will be sending copies of this e mail to individuals and groups who may be affected by and interested in the misrepresentations at Dargaville museum.

Scott Hamilton


Blogger Edward said...

Excellent letter Maps. Very well said. I'm very disturbed and very concerned that such utter drivel has wormed its way into any Museum, let alone one which serves a relatively large number of people.
I am suprised that they have gotten away with it for so long, and suspect it is due to Dargavillians only
"authority" on NZ prehistory being a certain Mr Hilliam of Celtic NZ and One New Zealand Foundation fame.
I would like to say that growing up in Dargaville, it wasn't always like that, but unfortunately this is the same racist pseudo-loving realm I remember all too well.
For shame Dargaville Museum.

5:20 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One NZ?!? Celtic NZ?!?


How can a fascist group like One NZ take control of a museum's Maori wing in the 21st century?!???

5:28 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

I should clarify. Hilliams is often quoted by both 'organisations', not necessarily part of them to my knowledge. But they appear a good group of mates if their ramblings are anything to go by. At any rate, the same species of ideas seems to be rife in the Darg Museum. Like you say. How? In the 21st century? It's so backwards.

6:46 pm  
Blogger Matthew R. X. Dentith said...

It's all a bit weird, really, when wacky ideas make it into what you would expect to be informed places.

8:40 pm  
Blogger Paul said...

Well done. So far as I can see, this is not a public museum. Any idea as to who owns it?

10:45 pm  
Blogger Jayne said...

Wow, I'm astounded that a museum would allow itself to be used as a vehicle to push someone else's beliefs like this.
Well written letter :)
It's quite sad because the historian is supposed to remain neutral and unbiased in reporting the events of history but it is hardly ever done that way.

1:45 am  
Blogger Marty Mars said...

The interesting area for me, apart from all the usuals is, that everytime you go out maps and have a look around, you find examples similar to this. How much don't we know about out there? What rubbish is being promoted to our citizens and visitors?

I'm going to try to keep an eye out a bit more because it upsets me greatly that these people get traction for their views.
And if we don't stop them - who will. kia kaha

8:18 am  
Blogger maps said...

Hi folks,

thanks for the comments. If you have even five minutes, I urge you to send a quick e mail to Dargaville museum at

I think some of the staff are actually quite concerned about attracting criticism. After I talked to her for some time and explained how untenable to the Waitaha exhibit was, the staff member I met on Sunday seemed quite concerned about the implications of the museum's misrepresentation of history. She eventually admitted that Noel Hilliam was her source for many of the 'facts' she had been giving me about prehistory. She also admitted that she had been worried by some of Hilliam's more 'extravagant claims', and stated that he had been interfering with the museum's correspondence with the public, by attempting (unsuccessfully, it seems) to filter out communications from people he did not like.

It may be that Noel Hilliam, who was at one stage, I understand, banned from the museum, has achieved a toehold again and has been up to mischief behind the backs of amy other people involved with the institution. The lack of knowledge about prehistory amongst staff and the lack of involvement of Maori in the running of the museum may have helped Hilliam get away with his misrepresentations.

I am informing a number of individuals about the travesty at Dargaville museum, and I hope that representations from some of these people might help the museum make sense. If the museum refuses to budge, I think that it might be possible to make a complaints to the Race Relations Conciliator about the presentation of the Pouto pou.

I also think that the polcie might be interested in some of Hilliam's behaviour in the north. I was googling Hilliam, and I have noticed that he has, if the Celtic NZ site is to be believed, been involved in the 'secret' pillaging of bones from caves in the Kaipara area:

'A new cache of "Turehu" (a subgroup of the Patu-paiarehe) bones found in the Kaipara District. The skeletons are being studied by Noel Hilliam, former Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum, and his team of researchers...

One of many photos taken by Noel Hilliam of the very small stature Turehu people that he and a group of experts are secretly studying. Noel's attempts to undertake proper scientific investigation in behalf of the New Zealand public are being thwarted and blockaded by the PC establishment.' (scroll down)

If these claims are correct, then it seems to me that Hilliam has been breaking the law. I will find out more about the legislation which prohibits the looting of grave sites this week. Once again, though, I urge you all to email Dargaville museum and complain about what is going on there.

10:06 am  
Blogger Edward said...

I too have suspected Hilliam's has been destroying archaeological and wahi tapu sites. There are many peices of legislation, but the main one will be the NZ Historic Places Act 1993, under which knowingly destroying, damaging, or modifying any archaeological site, whether recorded or not, is a criminal offense and any persons invloved can be prosecuted.
I have always thought of Hilliam's as a tomb raider or sorts.

10:14 am  
Blogger Edward said...

Just sent through my own email:

"To whom it may concern,

I am emailing you because it has recently come to my attention that your musuem has been promoting misinformation and pseudo-history pertaining to New Zealand's prehistory.

My concerns include the treatment and interpretation of the large pou you have on display, and the misinformation or pseudo-historical ideas which accompany the artefact on the interpretive panel. As I understand it, you will have already recieved other complaints outlining what exactly is wrong with the panel and the display. Suffice to say, the comment that the pou is different in design to Maori carving and that it belongs to a pre-polynesian people is simply unsubstantiated rubbish in its truest form. No scholar of New Zealand history or prehistory would support such bizzare and unsupported claims. Furthermore, as I understand it the "educational" books and DVD's you seem to display and stock are authored by hacks and other untrained amatuers who make various claims that the polynesian colonisers, who then eventually culturally evolved into Maori, were not the original ihabitants of New Zealand, but rather that this status belongs to various other peoples, usually white, as it turns out. No attempt is made whatsoever to at the very least balance these intolerably bad books out with the same number of scholarly books.

While I think everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs, a museum is suppost to be a place of education, of demonstrating the facts of the past. This is a job the Dargaville museum is failing miserably at by letting politically and racially motivated biases enter it's policies. And believe me, the kinds of pseudo-history and pseudo-scientific ideas the museum is helping perpetrate are indeed racist. Just as they are uncritical examples of exaclty what history and science are not.

I am speaking as a trained archaeologist who grew up in Dargaville, so I have both the professional background to state that your interpretations of prehistoy are misleading and devisive, and the personal background to state that I have never been more embarrased by my home town as I am right now. I suspect much of this has to do with the pseudo-"researcher" Noel Hilliams. If Dargaville Museum wanted to demonstrate itself as a safe haven for hillbilly-esk racist quasi-scholarship, then congratulations.

I have taken the liberty of contacting my other archaeological colleagues as well as the New Zealand Historic Places Trust. We will also be contacting the local iwi to discuss. I cannot denote just how serious this issue is.


Edward Ashby
Archaeologist and Dargavillian"

11:07 am  
Blogger Skyler said...

good on you Edward - great letter. I will be sending mine off soon.

11:35 am  
Blogger Marty Mars said...

Here is my email sent yesterday -

"Kia ora

I have heard about your exhibit Pouto Ki Rongomaraeroa and the caption which states, “It is different in type and design to Maori carvings, reinforcing the theory that the Waitaha had different origins and a longer history in New Zealand than Maori.”

This is a complete and utter lie and should not be in any public institution. I whakapapa to Kai Tahu, Kati Mamoe and Waitaha, this grouping is known as Ngai Tahu whanui. You have insulted all Ngai Tahu whanui with your lies. And you have also insulted local tangata whenua by refusing to ask them for the truth. Why would you believe the lies of pakeha rather than the truth of maori – I think it is because you are racist and the only honourable action for you to take is to resign.

You are a disgrace and I will be emailing Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu to let them know about your insult to us.

marty mars

And to Anake CEO of Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu today cc to darg

"I'd like to bring to your attention an insult to all Ngai Tahu. For years we have had the bogus histories of brailsford and his ilk compromise the mana of Ngai Tahu. The blog Reading the Maps highlights another example in dargaville museum where our history is being slandered and our Tupuna insulted.

I think Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu should send a clear message that the abuse of 'Waitaha' will not be tolerated anymore and i would like the iwi to write, officially, to these people to tell them that they are insulting us by suggesting that Waitaha were here before maori."

As you can see i have tried to take the emotion out of it. :)

12:40 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

does the 'waitaha' ruka family which made this announcement recently on facebook have anything to do with the patrick ruka at dargaville:

12:51 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

also from the rukas...

Category: Common Interest - Beliefs & Causes
Description: A traditional Nation that was formed around 2436BC in Egypt, where the Elders saw that the time of the sands would move in and inundate the lands and the civilisations of Peace, so our people moved in three distinct groups of Kurawaka, Rakaiwaka and Pakauwaka along the land bridge of the European continent from Egypt, into India, Tibet, China, The Mongol Empire, The Aleutian Islands into Americas North and South, into the Pacific to start the Nations of Pacifica. We are the descendants of those original Priest, Healers, Teachers who were sent into the world to hold onto the information for the future. Our colonising peoples sought to destroy us completely as has been the case over the thousands of years but we have survived under worse and today after 1989 and the Labour Government we are now free as Tohunga Teachers to again teach our truths into our families. Traditionally our people have responded very well to the colonists and re now refuting their own truths. We the elders of the Grandmother and Grandfather Councils ask all of our people to look into the Egyptian truths and find our people of Waitaha. The Elder who set the waka sailing from the Red sea into the Indian Ocean then into the Pacific was Mere(mere tuahiahi) Ruka (Te Korakora).

Contact Info
Office: 199 Whitecliffs Road

12:53 pm  
Blogger Skyler said...

Here is what I sent to the museum (same as others before me but hopefully they will realise how serious this issue is):

To Whom It May Concern:

I visited your museum on Sunday 11 October along with my husband and a couple of our friends. We enjoyed looking at your vast collection, especially the displays you have on the early gum diggers and maritime history in Dargaville. My heart sank though as we came towards the end of your museum and saw the way you had displayed and interpreted a large pou that you call ‘Pouto Ki Rongomaraeroa’.

Firstly I was saddened to see the way you displayed the pou – lying down looking like it was in a coffin. Pou are intended to stand upright, and visitors to your museum will better understand the function and meaning of the pou if it is displayed in the way its makers intended.

As I read your interpretation of the pou my heart sank further, as I realised that you were presenting pseudo-history as fact:

“It is different in type and design to Maori carvings, reinforcing the theory that the Waitaha had different origins and a longer history in New Zealand than Maori. The Waitaha lived in settlements around much of New Zealand's coast.”

You assert that the pou is different in design to Maori carvings and that this pou reinforces the theory that the Waitaha are different in origin and were here before Maori. Firstly, the pou in function and design is immediately recognisable as Maori and secondly, there is no scholarly evidence that there was a non-Polynesian people here before Maori.

I work at The University of Auckland (though I am writing this in a personal capacity) and I wasn’t happy that you make reference to the university in your display board as it gives the impression that The University of Auckland backs up your theory about a 'Waitaha' civilisation. I don’t believe that the university does back you up and I am relatively confident that you will not find any academics to support your theory.

I believe museums have a duty to portray history accurately and by presenting and interpreting this pou in the way that you have you are promoting pseudo-history that is based in no fact. You also had some books and a dvd in your store that further advance the idea that the was a white race of people here before Maori. Even if you defend your right to sell those books you should at least balance your bookshelf out with some accurate historical books.

Under the Treaty of Waitangi you have a responsibility to work in partnership with Maori when you store and display taonga like the Pouto pou. I do hope that Dargaville Museum reconsiders how it displays and represents Maori artifacts and that you develop a strong working relationship with the tangata whenua in your area.

I think you have some wonderful artifacts in your museum and it would be a shame if you lost all credibility as a museum because you promote pseudo-history as fact. I have already passed on how the museum has displayed and represented the pou to some of my colleagues here at The University of Auckland.


2:48 pm  
Blogger Brightspark Books said...

Thanks for the info., I sent this.

To Whom it May Concern,

I am a writer and have ten books published, two of these novels. Also, I have
studied Tikanga me te Reo Maori for some decades formally and informally.

I gather your museum has been straying into the realm of fiction but leading
people to think of these erroneous ideas as facts. I trust this will be remedied.

I find the idea others, (maybe Celts or Vikings), came here earlier as well as people from Oceania
who became Maori interesting in a fictional sense, but realise there is no scientific proof
of this. Any talk of pre-Maori settlements really does have to be fictional, I'd say and rarely
then has a place in a museum.

I have researched a fictional book extensively, for years about this and know there is no
actual evidence of pre-Maori settlement, only theories.

One of the reasons I wrote a fictional book about Vikings coming here with Maori, was to show
the common ground 'Europeans' MAY have shared with Maori, not to discount the extraordinary
feats of navigation people from Oceania displayed by becoming tangata whenua here.

I am appalled a museum would try to make out a fantasy such as I write for a novel, could exist
in fact and also, display a precious, rare carving in such a rude, careless manner.

Then, books are sold in your museum shop which have no place there either, I believe? We
may all have opinions and theories, museums however rarely sell fantasy books or theories
in pamphlets.

It sounds like particular southerners want to discount Maori culture. What a pity and also,
a fool's errand. The Fool often does learn on these silly excursions however, now may this be so.

I trust this terrible situation at your museum will be changed as soon as possible and
apologies shall be made, publicly.


Raewyn Alexander BIC

6:07 pm  
Blogger Liz said...

I'm a close friend of Lisa's aka Timespanner. She told me about this last night. Both her and I have always had our reservations about the carving - on both the "Waitaha" theory and the way it was being displayed. I had seriously considered sending the very detailed digital images I took several months ago of the carving to the Auckland Museum and getting their opinion. I think now that I will be. I have Ngaitahu descent myself so I was greatly concerned about the way the carving was being treated and displayed. I have a larger stitched together version of the image Maps has in this post as well as many photographs. Great post and definitely well said. I agree with you completely.

7:12 pm  
Blogger Timespanner said...

Good post, Maps. Just one thing -- any chance you could note somewhere that the image of the carving above came from my friend Liz's Backroads blog? She's quite okay about you including it (it's drawn some attention to her photography, which is great), but a credit would be cool, cheers. It took quite a bit of her time stitching together to form up that composite.

7:38 pm  
Blogger Skyler said...

Thanks Raewyn - really well said.

7:52 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kia ora

Good to see there are people out there at least trying to put a stop to such nonsense.

A couple of things, there is a north island iwi with the name of waitaha - quite separate from Ngai Tahu ...

Waitaha’s area of interest is from Tauranga harbour in the west across to Maketu in the east. The historical claims of the iwi primarily relate to the confiscation of land (raupatu), land sales to the Crown, and the operation of the Native Land Laws.

The other thing is that this misuse of our tribal histories is being done to enrich certain individuals and not in a spiritual sense.

I note from the facebook page that folks from overseas are coming in for a spritual gathering but details of certain aspects need to be kept secret. This gets into cult status, only the true beleivers and the ones who have made the journey get to "know" the truth. Funny how this gathering was not advertised widely in NZ where surely the majority of Waitaha live?

To think a museum would allow itself to be used in this way is concerning.

10:58 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

It's a mix of "racism" and people who "want things to be true" - mythological things - strange things.

Brailsford's book 'The Tattooed Land' (which is undoubtedly an interesting book) has always been sought after somewhat by collectors in the s/h book trade. Then he apparently shifted to fiction and started believing his myths...

Almost as if one let W B Yeats theory of gyres etc be the basis of Irish history! The strange theories he had give a good structure to his poems but are not generally much use in really understanding Irish history (with some good exceptions) - but of course they are a part of the whole deal of Irish culture....

And so many people want to be Irish or Scottish or if there were some deep mystery about being Celtic...

But people love mysteries.

And some Maori want to be "Celtic" or "Egyptian" - strange! Or is it - I remember imagining I was of Spanish or Jewish descent or something - as that was exotic - as teenager...anything rather than be just a Kiwi!

Maps is like a Kiwi Holmes on the search for the eternal truth! Endlessly seeking or fleeing form Moriarty who is = Racism, Misinformation?

Good post and letters Maps and Skyler - and a good response from all.

11:30 pm  
Blogger Paul said...

More nonsense can be found on Barry Brailsford's website at

In 1988, Te Pani Manawatu, of the Rangitane people, a tribe within the Nation of Waitaha, asked Barry to tell the story of that Nation and bring their ancient lore to the world. Te Pani Manawatu was the Ariki [Chief] of the Tuahuriri Runanga [Council] of Ngai Tahu, the prominent South Island tribe.

This was an unprecedented event in the history of Maori, an amazing moment in the relationship of the indigenous people and the nation. The sacred knowledge shared had never left the Inner School of Learning before and now someone of European descent became the custodian of their greatest treasure.

To this day some Maori still wonder why the elders stepped beyond their own to find the voice to carry their message to the world. When setting the task, Te Pani Manawatu said…

‘You have been chosen to write the record of our ancestors and tell the story of Waitaha because of your skill and the awhi [support] you gave the people of Ngai Tahu during the Waitangi Tribunal hearings. This is not the easiest of tasks because of the things that have been hidden away from the majority of the people.

People will ridicule all the things you say and do in the name of Waitaha….it is a dangerous journey, it is a hard journey, you must walk it as a student…. Write what you learn and hear in peace and love…Carry your cross well for it is a heavy one that you bear.’
This decision to reveal the knowledge was made possible by a unique alignment of the stars in 1990, an event foretold four centuries ago. Now the wisdom keepers were free to share their sacred lore and tell the world it was time for the peoples of peace to stand tall again.

11:54 pm  
Anonymous mike said...

Very, very interesting article.

But I think Richard Taylor's comment is also a useful moderation.

Yes, this museum seems to have been led down a very strange path. They have been foolish, leading them back gently and with a little understanding, will be more effective than the self-righteous frogmarch.

8:12 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: the Egyptian/Waitaha connection.

At last I have proof! A pyramid was recently uncovered in murihiku

Seriously though Dargaville, that's one poor excuse for a museum label. There's plenty of ways they could have addressed the difference in material culture rather than resorting to the wisdom of Gandalf/Brailsford...

9:21 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand that the various extant Waitaha groups in Aotearoa are very embarassed about all this new age new wave postmodern Californian b/s... have even heard that some young Waitaha people tried to tell their kaumatua that they didn't know their own history! That went dowm like the proverbial lead balloon and the young people were soon put right.
Interestly and not unsurprisingly most Maori do not want to dialogue publically about this subject...I have also heard that there is one Maori whanau (named in other blogs) who are getting rich and famous overseas out of all this rubbish and there are a lot of middle aged sad pakeha who buy in to it.
For a good balanced well researched overview I would recommnend History Professor Kerry Howe's book "The Quest for Origins - Who First Discovered and Settled New Zealand and the Pacific Islands?" Auckland: Penguin Books, 2003. Revised Edition 2008.

9:48 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For an interview with one of the Ruka whanau about the supposed Waitaha connections with Egypt, see this page -

Does Dargaville museum really suport this sort of New Age bs?

9:52 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kia ora Paul

The alignement of the stars referred to by these folks was the funding available to pay (mainly pakeha) to make Maori history and traditions available to the pakeha world.

Another step in the process of ripping Maori off using Crown resources. So the Daragaville museum has fallen victim to the same type of elaborate scam as the 1990 Commission, the Waitangi Tribunal, the Crown and others.

They have good company and good on those who shine a light on such nonsense.

9:55 am  
Blogger maps said...

There are some fine letters in this comments thread!

I do thank Mad Bush Farm for the use of her photo. I wish she'd kept her blog, which was very interesting and also perhaps quite rare, operational!

I've posted my latest epistle to the folks at Dargy museum on this blog.

5:28 pm  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

You guys are all holding hands, grouping in an impenetrable hug hostile to outside perspectives, attempting desperately to protect your orthodox ideas. Archaeology is not an exact science; it is continually over turning its assumptions through enlightened and intuitive examination. You remind me of the arrogant thinking of great old Bishop Usher- so certain of your intellect, stuck in an intelligence trap of your own creation, blind to 'other' possibilities- Heresy you SHOUT! You attack using all the intellectual gusto you can muster, egoistically declaring your authority, your prejudices show through. There are a great many anomalies which discredit academic archaeology theory, they are part of a process totally out of your control- wake up to plausible possibilities and you will find increasing evidence that things are NOT as they seem. Time will prove you archaic thinkers- hopefully before your passing so you may witness your own stubborn stupidity and gain some insight on your way out.

All exhibits at our great museums are displayed out of context and many are redefined in time. In resent times the Hotunui you refer was painted post box red, archaeologists proclaimed it authentic- it was not. Open your minds and you will see much.

Dr Moon

3:15 pm  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

You guys are all holding hands, grouping in an impenetrable hug hostile to outside perspectives, attempting desperately to protect your orthodox ideas. Archaeology is not an exact science; it is continually over turning its assumptions through enlightened and intuitive examination. You remind me of the arrogant thinking of great old Bishop Usher- so certain of your intellect, stuck in an intelligence trap of your own creation, blind to 'other' possibilities- Heresy you SHOUT! You attack using all the intellectual gusto you can muster, egoistically declaring your authority, your prejudices show through. There are a great many anomalies which discredit academic archaeology theory, they are part of a process totally out of your control- wake up to plausible possibilities and you will find increasing evidence that things are NOT as they seem. Time will prove you archaic thinkers- hopefully before your passing so you may witness your own stubborn stupidity and gain some insight on your way out.

All exhibits at our great museums are displayed out of context and many are redefined in time. In resent times the Hotunui you refer was painted post box red, archaeologists proclaimed it authentic- it was not. Open your minds and you will see much.

Dr Moon

3:19 pm  
Blogger maps said...

I would have more confidence in your advice, Dr Moon, if you a) weren't appropriating someone else's identity in a mischevious manner and b) could provide muster a single argument against the claims I've made in my letters. Better luck with your next comment.

4:12 pm  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

Your arrogance is all pervading. I am who I am, I write what I see. The integrity of your blogg rests on counter view, you should not attempt to shut contributors down, but allow the exchange as a true intellectual can.


4:23 pm  
Blogger Paul said...

Whoever you are, you can't spell 'Ussher' or 'blog.'

4:36 pm  
Blogger maps said...

Since there's another Dr Moon - Dr Paul Moon, from AUT - who gets mentioned fairly frequently on this blog, and since you have no problem with going under you real name, perhaps you can differentiate yourself and prevent confusion by letting us know your first name, and what subject you earned your doctorate in?

As for engaging you in dialogue - I can't get blood from a stone. You've said nothing at all which relates to my arguments about the notion that Waitaha are a pre-Maori people. Pointing out that archaeology is not physics (nobody said it was) and making irrelvant remarks about Hotunui (it was museum curators, not archaeologists, who painted the wharenui, and none of them thought it was originally red - the meeting house was created in historical times, for goodness' sake!) is not going to cut the mustard.

Why don't you lay out the evidence for the proposition that the Ruka family came from Outer Space, lived in Egypt four thousand years ago, and them crossed the sea to New Zealand from South America? It'd certainly be interesting to see you have a go.

6:52 pm  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

P and M- you reveal your true colours- give new meaning to "enough rope, they'll hang themselves”! Very amateur management of your blog my friends.
M- Blaming museum curators who were advised by Archaeologists validates my point- what you understand as knowledge today is naive tomorrow- there are no certainties in your field, only observations and possibilities and obviously retrospect denial.
By science I refer to your processual approach and not ‘physics’.
M- you are learned but constrained. Relax, pour yourself a scotch and open your mind to the possibilities the evidence might present. Detectives construction cases to prevailing theory, when in fact the evidence has other outcomes. Your harsh judgement of Dargiville Museum is unnecessary.

What’s all this rubbish about aliens- your proposition is discrediting?

Apologies to the esteemed Dr Paul Moon- I am another.

8:28 pm  
Blogger maps said...

Why on earth do you think the decision to paint Hotunui red had anything to do with archaeologists? Do you think Hotunui was pulled out of the ground? The mind boggles.

The fact that Hotunui was painted red has nothing at all to do with archaeology, or any discipline that makes truth-claims about the past.

It was a byproduct of the efforts of people like Ngata and the Rotorua School of Arts to promote a single Maori style of art in an effort to help Maori regroup after the traumas of the nineteenth century. The same motivation was behind the 'streamlining' of the Maori language in Ngata's dictionary. The museum workers who painted Hotunui red didn't think the meeting house had once been red! They were just trying to bring it in line with the official style being established for Maori art.

It's easy to understand the motivation for this sort of decision, but in retrospect it meant that a lot of the diversity of the culture was obscured. I'm pleased that most of the red paint has been removed from Hotunui.

The real question is - what on earth do you think do you think this has to do with the subject at hand, which is the claim that the 'Waitaha Nation' represented by the Ruka whanau is the remnant of an ancient people who moved from Outer Space to Egypt to South America to New Zealand and constructed an advanced civilisation here.

For the funky claim about a home in the stars and a 500,000 year-old whakapapa, see this doozy of an interview-profile, which I posted yesterday with my second epistle to Dargy:

'I got to meet Macki's people, the Waitaha, meaning the water carriers. There I saw a beautiful dance that was being created from the grandmothers and the sisters. The dance has gone on for hundreds of thousands of years. I was taken to their beautiful ceremonial houses. The walls were carved with the genology that dates back 500,000 years ago. Up on the ceiling were the star charts. It takes them all the way back to the planet that they came here from.'

And here's the Ruka whanau/Waitaha Nation in their own words, on facebook recently:

'Waitaha Peace Nation of The Universe

A traditional Nation that was formed around 2436BC in Egypt, where the Elders saw that the time of the sands would move in and inundate the lands and the civilisations of Peace, so our people moved in three distinct groups of Kurawaka, Rakaiwaka and Pakauwaka along the land bridge of the European continent from Egypt, into India, Tibet, China, The Mongol Empire, The Aleutian Islands into Americas North and South, into the Pacific to start the Nations of Pacifica.'

These same Rukas are the source Noel Hilliam is using at Dargy museum.

If you're as gullible as you seem to be, Dr Moon, the Rukas are taking bookings for a forthcoming national guided tour of 'sacred sites'. I think they'll be doing things with crystals along the way - something to do with opening 'ancient portals'...

9:08 pm  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

LOL! I under estimated you, a sense of humour- interesting profile. I don't subscribe to the celestial routes you keep referring to- I think you have assumed guilt or association too quickly. How was that scotch now.

The point I am making about the Hotunui is Museums are hailed as bastions of natural, archaeological and anthropological history. They portray artefacts out of context which itself is misrepresentation. The horizontally displayed Pou is as the Red Paint was- nothing more, nothing less- don’t judge so harshly. If you argue the Dargiville displayed text further misrepresented, I agree, but so too did the Hotunui text. Likewise, displays of the poor old Mummy and erect Moa are not as we are told.

I am interested in your thoughts on ‘repatriation’ (I use loosely) of unearthed ‘Maori’ remains? Shouldn’t we undertake forensic investigation, including where possible, DNA analysis before handing them to Iwi for re-internment- it is dangerous and assumptive otherwise? One cannot assume human remains found in provenance are ancestral. Perhaps we might advance our understanding of the colonisation of these islands if we pursue a more investigative approach to such finds. Anomalies will result, Maori will be confronted with embarrassing contradiction and we, the people of this land, will be provided with a more complete, less biased settlement picture. You have had the privilege of visiting Classified archaeological areas to which all others are prohibited. Could it be if a truly investigative analysis was undertaken it might over-ride the largely circumstantial conclusions?

10:03 pm  
Blogger maps said...

What an odd argument you are making.

You say that museums can't display objects properly, because they take them out of their natural contexts, and many museums have made mistakes, as the Auckland museum did by painting Hotunui red. Therefore, we shouldn't criticise Dargaville museum when it makes colossal blunders in its presentation of the Pouto pou.

I don't accept an analogy between the stuff-up at Dargy and the presentation of Hotunui - what is the text of the misleading caption you think the museum used to display beside the building? - but I certainly believe the decision to paint the thing red was a bad one. And I'd certainly say that NZ's museums in general have a history of misrepresenting Maori history in various ways, even if they haven't done anything as egregious as Noel Hilliam at Dargy. Fifty years ago the only Maori employees at Auckland were the cleaners. A lot has changed for the better.

But the mistakes of the past make it even more important to be alert to the sort of misrepresentations that Noel Hilliam is perpetrating. The idea that we should go easy on him because there were people who have done other dodgy things in the past is fairly silly. Shall we go easy on a burglar because so many other people have committed the same crime in the past?

Likewise, we should not give up on the job of trying to present artefacts as well as possible just because we can't perfectly recreate the context in which they once existed. A pou should be displayed standing upright, not lying down, for the same reason that a medieval suit of armour should be fitted to a mannequin's body, rather than left in a heap on the floor.

There have been extensive tests carried out on prehistoric skeletons found in New Zealand, as well as extensive DNA testing of Maori. Ironically, it is this sort of testing which has added to the weight of evidence against the idea that Europeans or Melanesians or South Americans reached these shores in large numbers in prehistoric times.

HD Skinner's detailed examinations of Moriori skeletons in the '20s were able to clear up the idea that the Moriori were a Melanesian people. The absence of DNA connections between Maori and either native Americans or (except in recent times) Europeans counts against claims that South Americans or Celts got here thousands of years ago.

In my experience, the proponents of the theories which are discredited by (amongst other things) DNA testing tend to claim that the people involved in the tests are the tools of a conspiracy run by the 'PC establishment' and 'Maori radicals' - and this claim is made despite the international nature of some of the testing programmes.

Oddly enough, the same huge conspiracy which is supposedly stopping the DNA testing of vast numbers of Caucasian skeletons failed to stop the running of tests which confirmed that the three hundred year old skull found in the Wairarapa a couple of years ago belonged to a white woman. I guess we slipped up there, huh?

11:49 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

For someone who condemns Maps' arguments and archaeology in general, you sure do know sweet bugger all about what archaeology really is. We've all dealt with people like you on here a million times before, the quasi-intellectual who, at the end of the day, just ends up talking drivel out of the hole in his head about things he knows nothing about. I'm sure while you're standing there in front of the mirror each morning puffing up your chest and reciting the latest uneducated drivel you've managed to dredge up from that pseudo-loving, relativistic hole in your head, you think you're an amazing specimen of "open mindedness" and an unappreciated genius. Unfortunately, so far everything you've said either has absolutely no point whatsoever or is incorrect as Maps has shown. Take for example your tripe about DNA tests. You are obviously talking out of that hole in your backside here as it is abundantly clear you have not even the slightest clue as to how archaeological investigations are done and what is involved.
As for "Dr Moon", wow, how great of you to hide behind an alias.

I think you must either be Hilliam, Doutre, or Bolton, or else one of their accolytes well schooled in their particular brand of madness. Just another one who demands everything but understands nothing. A quasi-intellectual with a tendancy to paranoia and pseudo-fuelled worldviews. What a guy. Give him a clap everybody.

Here's a novel idea, why not try doing some background reading from sites other that uncensored, pseudo-womans-weekly, One NZ foundation, or Celtic NZ, and come back when you've got something useful to say. What a day that would be when people stopped clunking the keyboards about things they haven't bothered to research.

8:52 am  
Blogger Dr Moon said...

Eddy, Eddy, Eddy settle down pet, your getting yourself all wound up. Can’t be good for someone in your condition. FYI- I have not read Hilliam, Doutre, or Bolton so chill my friend, the only conspiracy is the one in your mind. My comments have certainly hit a nerve haven’t they? You’ve broken ranks with your intellectual discipline and hit out personally…holes in heads, holes in ass…. What’s all this talk then? Psychology tells us when an adversary reacts in this manner it is because they are threatened, confused or disorientated. I suggest you are all three my friend.

11:40 am  
Blogger Marty Mars said...

moon you have no credibility. Your words are like... well nothing really

edward - your passion is inspiring

1:00 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

anon (i'm not going to call you "Dr Moon"),

I'm not wound up at all really, though i'm sure you wish you could get under my skin. Though your comments have hit a nerve alright, my "i'm sick of silly pseudo loving quasi-intellectuals who refuse to do their own background research and aren't open to an honest debate" nerve.

As for breaking ranks, yes, if I had the patience and you seemed like you were willing for an honest debate I might take the time to engage you in a more constructive and informative manner, but, alas, oh alas, I just found myself staring at your unadulterated drivel and couldn't help but point out the obvious. That you're talking rubbish. Also, it's kind of difficult to counter points with you when you don't actually have any. Such as it is when talking to self-assured quasi's like you. A lot of words, but nothing worth listening to.

Which brings me to my next point. Psychology you say? Wow, hey everyone, look, we have ourselves yet another multidisciplinary expert! Wow! Did you learn that discipline the same place you learnt archaeology, namely, out of thin air and google searches? My, but you are a gem aren't you.

Finally, I replied to you, in spite of my better judgement to ignore you, because i'm passionate about this subject. Simple as that. Instead of coming back again and again like a bad breakfast repeating itself, why don't you actually go and read up as I suggested, or even better, try acknowledging and addressing what Maps has taken the time to reply to you. He's much more patient than I, and alot more articulate. The more you make statements but fail to acknowledge constructive counter arguments, the more stupid, desperate, and pathetic you look 'spam'.

1:26 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

Marty Mars,

Always a pleasure.

1:31 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

Dr Moon, Dear Dr Moon - how is Mrs Dr Moon? And how is Uncle Dr Sun? And Dr Cloud? How is Auntie Dr Venus? And Dr Mars? And Doctor Doctor? And Doc Docter? And Doctor Asteroid? Doctor Mountain? And Doctor Tree? & Dr Earth?
I DO hope you are well Dr Moony Moon, and that all the other Doctors are also very well.

11:52 pm  
Anonymous Keri h said...

You may know that I have visual difficulties & reslly dont want to waste eye sight but... I trudged through the ludicrous muddy gudgy moony sludgy windups- and then- glorious fresh water!
Maps, Edward, Marty Mars- wonderful! And Richard T -the excellent lemon slice in the glass of springwater!

2:33 am  
Blogger Richard said...

I lost my glasses Keri so I know how you feel - I can see well as long as I am not tired or the light is good...and I got a pair of those cheap glasses from the Chemists for reading at night...

I started to read 'Plains' by Murnane...quite fascinating.

These pseudo history people will always be with us - I myself "make up history" (perhaps a bit like the almost Kafkaresque Murnane) but of course when it comes to the crunch I don't really believe in myself!!

There is so much injustice, tragedy (for people all ethnic types), and horror that we need humour to survive... This is not to discount the seriousness or the complexity of history. Or the a "banality of evil" - paradoxically the Jewish philosopher and (socialist?)Hannah Arendt, who apparently coined that phrase, had an affair with Heidegger - the Nazi philosopher but also the (great?) and then quite popular philosopher (before he became a Nazi) - then after the war she forgave him for shopping various professors etc to the Gestapo! So, strange, she loved him as a man* despite everything ...we are strange beating things.

But the other phrase is "eternal vigilance"... These (proto-Nazi?) guys at Dargaville are playing with explosives...but we have Sherlock Maps on the case, hot on the heels of the evil Dr Moriarty!

Is it significant or relevant to note at this juncture that once (about 10 years ago) my daughter and her then boy friend found that the young people at Dargaville were rather hostile and smashed a window of the car they were in?? To conclude therefore that Dargaville is an inherently evil place?

This kind of experiential understanding of Dargaville is perhaps too based on hearsay and so on - but I thought it might help...

But where is the redoubtable Dr Moon?

* Info from a BBC docu on YouTube...

4:16 pm  
Anonymous Keri h said...

Thanks Richard, and I agree with you.

Latest Anon - we definitely dont want to hear your juvenile drivel. You contribute nothing but desperate silliness and ill-informed rancour, and demean even your anonimity.

6:25 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Me very sorry...I think thanks you Keri but...

I wish I could understand what all these complicated things are about.

Nearly 50 comms...

10:00 pm  
Blogger Marty Mars said...

anon you have given me quite a few smiles and laughs with your shut up richard comment. I think it is in my top 5 comments of the year. Classic.

but why this anger against pigs "you pig moron", pigthis and pigthat - what the hell have pigs ever done to you? Why don't you just leave the pigs out of it? Whats your pigproblem?

3:04 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks yu pleese. I see you also tink Lichard a bad Comunnist poetry Plig. In my country Pig is very evil bad thing.

I see now more than flifty coment! Good go ing. He! He!

Happy Daddy Merry Christimass to all you. Ha!

11:11 pm  
Blogger Liz said...

Gosh Maps you've had quite a debate here. Yes I do intend reactivating my Back Roads Blog. Family circumstances have kept me away from maintaining it. Anyway it will be back to normal transmission shortly. And thanks for getting the Dargaville Museum to remove that Pseudo-History. I read something one time that mentioned a celtic carving at Batley near where I live - I don't think somehow I can ever buy that alternative idea of NZ History. I know the people that live there - first they knew about it.

Thanks Maps and I'll include a couple of backlinks to your posts concerning the Dargaville Museum

Keep up the great work

7:08 pm  
Anonymous Stu said...

What an ignorant and biased assessment of clear evidence to contrary of what we were told of NZ history in schools. You people need to take your rose-tinted glasses off and take a look at the plethora of evidence that is emerging. Instead of holding onto the status quo - why not try to break new ground. You make me sick.

2:30 pm  
Blogger Unknown said...

I think the point everyone misses is that Maori as an identity term did not become common until a name was selected to collectivise the various tribes into one. The term Maori then became sealed in The Treaty of Waitangi. In the previous Declaration of Independence the term United Tribes of New Zealand is used. Thus Ngapuhi, Ngati Whatua, Ngati Kuri, Waitaha and many more tribes were and are our expressions of identity. The term Maori means clean, clear, pure vibration. It refers to our normal state of being - before we polluted our bodies with processed foods and ideas that distract us from our connection with nature. I celebrate Dargaville museum for its daring to stand and be different. The book 1421 by Gavin Menzies is presenting wonderfully provocative information about the Chinese as first 'discoverers' of this land - you guessed it from the year 1421 when they began journeying to find new lands to trade with and inhabit. And in that book it speaks of the many different people from other countries who joined those ships to form a huge fleet. So it is not unreasonable to go outside the box and reason that chinese, celts, portugese, africans and others had arrived here well before Abel Tasman. Good on Gary Cook, Barry Brailsford, Noel Hilliam and others who are shaking up old ideas. We need a fresh look at things. Whether we agree or disagree, and many disagree without delving into the same depths of enquiry and acceptance that there are many ways to view the world and not the one eyed approach that some are attached to. Indeed Maori legends speak of the different BUT 1421 also mentions the people who were already here. Our histories tell us of the people of the land and for whom we have different names around the country. Where I come from they are known as Te Hapu Oneone - The Earth Born people. Now ponder that one. And within Ngai Potiki we say we originate from the union of Maungapohatu (our sacred mountain) and Hine Pukohurangi (our revered Mist Maiden). So the descndants of Potiki claim their origins in this land, and who are people to say otherwise. The waka people came later.

7:55 am  
Blogger Unknown said...

oops I forgot to finish a sentence. Here it is.

Indeedlegends speak of the different countenance of the people - brown, black, white, red, yellow, giants,tiny people and more.

8:23 am  
Anonymous J Walker said...

I think the 'Waitaha Nation' are a group of people trying to make something or benefit from the fact that this country has pre maori history. Their claims are ridiculous and fanciful, and it is a pity because they are making the idea of pre maori seem like a joke.

There has to be something taken from the stories of Patupaiarehe, Ngati Hotu and the like. They do have fanciful elements but one must ask why these stories exist.

There are petroglyphs in a writing from in several places in this country and to my knowledge, the maori did not posess a written language. It is my opinion after a long interest and much research from different sources that a fair skinned people inhabited the pacific islands and New Zealand before the Polynesians. My views are not expressed to discredit Maori, I am merely interested in the past. In samoa the creator god is known as Tangaloa. He was said to have had blonde hair, and many pacific ceremonies imitate this with fancy headdresses. When Europeans first came to samoa they were called 'The children of Tangaloa'.

These people were the descendants of Maui and Ratas expedition from the Red Sea to confirm Eratosthenes theory of a circular Earth.

12:10 am  
Anonymous Scott said...

Hi J,

I think archaeologists and historians would say that we can eliminate the possibility of an Egyptian voyage around the Pacific simply on the grounds of our knowledge of their aquatechnology. They didn't have the boats for the job, any more than the Greeks or the Celts did. The site you link seems to be connected to the rabidly conspiratorial political cult led by Lyndon Larouche - that's not a good look. Take a look at Rhys Richards' or David Burley's work on East Polynesian petroglyphs and the patterns at Pitcairn no longer seem so problematic.

12:28 am  
Anonymous Scott said...

'The book 1421 by Gavin Menzies is presenting wonderfully provocative information about the Chinese as first 'discoverers' of this land'

And Ruth, you know this book was originally written as a novel, right? Go and read the site, where real Sinologists (ie, ones who can actually read Chinese!) destroy Menzies' nonsense.

12:42 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's accepted that the Egyptians used to travel to Indonesia, they must have had pretty decent sailing expertise. I'm a big skeptic of much of Martin Doutres work on the Celtic subject, but the Egyptian theory would shed some light on how kumara got into the pacific, and also how Maui is credited with fishing up many pacific islands. It's at least worth thinking about, considering there is a bit of evidence, rather than looking at a pile of rocks and assuming celts put them there. Sure, archaeologists will tell you it couldn't have happened, but then again it's hard to push the boundaries of history when much has already been accepted.

3:43 am  
Anonymous Scott said...

'It's accepted that the Egyptians used to travel to Indonesia'

Accepted by whom? Not by any trained scholar, I'd guess. The Egyptian ships were made for the Nile, the Mediteranean, and the red Sea, not the open ocean. The notion that they could have gotten Indonesia, let alone Pitcairn Island, is not credible. The arrival of kumara in Polynesia has been very elegantly explained by the discovery of the skeletons of Polynesian humans and Polynesian chickens on Mocha Island, off the coast of Chile. That's the real work contemporary of scientific exploration and discovery:

I do find it odd that some folk want to credit Egyptians with something they had no ability to do, when there's now such conclusive evidence that Polynesians made contact with South America.

8:11 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't understand how you can say with such certainty what aqua technology the egyptians had. The Egyptians were going somewhere, 'Punt' as they knew it, to get gold and other minerals. It would seem most likely, due to the nature of the minerals that they were returning with, that this was somewhere in the Indonesia's. Not considering the fact that Egypt was once part of the Mediterranean kingdom of Mauri, so assuming you know what you know about Egypt, you are not considering what it once was. Tell me, if the Polynesians reached the Americas as you say, why was knowledge not passed back by these great seafarers. Why would they hang about on small island communities, subject to overcrowding if they knew about a huge continent to the east. Considering they settled every other place they 'discovered' why are there no Polynesian pas, etc in S America. Why does a huge eastern continent not feature at all in pacific mythology, not does the arrival of brown voyagers from the east feature in S American. Please explain.

9:26 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a side note, the arrival of white voyagers from the east is represented in S American culture, but you'll probably disprove that with another link to somewhere else on your site.

9:30 am  
Blogger Oracle said...

To the chatter and thread re- Egyptian sea farers - The Med leads to the Atlantic, the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean- why can't these armchair academics imagine the EXTREMELY high probability that sea ferers voyaged beyond their safe waters. As to having the means- the two massive vessels recently unearthed in the Giza Plateau were not to "carry the Pharaohs to the after life"- that is laughable. They were ocean going vessels, boats used to ply the oceans as boats do. Fore havens sake what do you really believe the technology represents- floating the seas or floating the heavens!. Why academics ascribe everything they do not understand to religious belief is ignorance and shorted sighted leading to these incredibly limited arguments. There is greater evidence to support ocean going voyages than after life voyages- THE BOATS- wake up and smell he coffee you fools! So, once in the Atlantic, once in the India Ocean what is there to do but voyage on and on and on ……

Mr Moon

10:56 am  
Anonymous Scott said...

'the two massive vessels recently unearthed in the Giza Plateau'

Are you talking about the Khufu ship?

That is single-hulled, and thus wouldn't be able to toddle around the inner Hauraki Gulf without capsizing, let alone cross the stormiest ocean in the world. I think it'd be in danger on Lake Pupuke, in fact. Why not just cut your losses and say that the Egyptians used UFOs to get to Pitcairn?

12:43 pm  
Anonymous J said...

That particular ship is about 4500 years old, more than 2000 years before Mauis voyage. Its inaccurate to consider it a fair representation of Egyptian seagoing vessels. How do YOU explain the pitcairn petroglyphs? They are obviously not polynesian, unless the polynesian had numerals and written words... Anyhow, you are obviously very close minded on the subject. I feel sorry for you, unable to push your mind further than what you are told.

1:36 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

2:28 pm  
Anonymous Scott said...

'How do YOU explain the pitcairn petroglyphs? They are obviously not Polynesian'

Again, I have to say that what seems obvious to you and Lyndon LaRouche is not necessarily obvious to the rest of us. I know of no scholar who has considered the Pitcairn petroglyphs anything but very characteristic examples of East Polynesian art. No one besides a handful of untrained folks on the net sees numbers and letters in them. I've already sugegsted you have a look at scholars like David Burley, who recently published on the newly-discovered East Polynesian-style petroglyphs on Foa, and Rhys Richards, whose book Manu Moriori discusses the parallels in Chathams, Rapa Nui, and Pitcairn glyphs.

The National Geo article you link to quotes an expert saying that the ancient Egyptians might have sailed a thousand and a half kilometres to Puntland, which is nowadays a part of Somalia. That doesn't seem very convincing evidence for a journey of 15,000 kilometres to India, let alone a journey of 30,000 kilometres to one of the most isolated islands in the world. Like I say, Egyptian aquatechnology precluded getting anywhere near the Pacific.

3:55 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

I studied Ancient history including Ancient Iraq and also Egypt at University and the Egyptians didn't do much exploration out side of Africa and sea voyages were limited to around Africa,the Mediterranean etc. There was little discussion by anyone of much in the way of sea exploration in fact the main 'expansion' of the Egyptians was into "Lower Egypt". The did attack the Hittites at one stage but mainly they stayed in Egypt.

The Chinese also didn't do much in the way of exploration. They did invent or make the first books.

Anything is possible, but in this case the evidence points to Polynesian peoples being the first to NZ. And I have also read books by von Daniken (even as a teenager I dismissed his stuff) and others such as Thor Heyerdahl (who is great to read (and quite informative about Easter Island for example) but he himself considered that it was unlikely or not necessarily a fact that the inhabitants of NZ came from South America...

But if anon thinks Scott has a closed mind he / she should think again he eras and it seems he reads or peruses books just about everything and anything including really bizarre stuff as well as "normal stuff" if there was any truth or mystery to be investigated he would have found Maps isn't closed minded...

But if all the anons want to believe that the Tooth Fairies conquered NZ then let them!

European sea vessels and seamanship skills were relatively inefficient and primitive compared to Polynesian and other Pacific or Oceanic Island sea vessels.

4:03 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For a long time the idea that Vikings reached north America was considered impossible - now proven. All I am saying is history is constantly changing, you just cannot be so certain these things could not have happened. Don't forget it is Maori themselves who acknowledge prior inhabitants.

4:46 pm  
Anonymous Edward said...

The Egyptians are at it again aye..? The secret knowledge of their globe-trotting antics that trained and dedicated Egyptologists who spend decades studying the technology and culture won't tell you in universities, but which is freely available on the net, the most reputable of sources, for those willing to see the truth...

People on the net will believe whatever they want, with whatever twisted or warped or misinterpreted evidence they see fit. There's no filter, so all sorts of crap gets through. It's draining trying to debate them - so I wont. They win, the Egyptians/Celts/whoever were everywhere first.

It never ceases to amaze me how little the net anons are interested or aware of genuine archaeological scholarship, but will happily lap up anything remotely resembling a bad Wilbur Smith novel... It's a real shame their interest in the past isn't focused into contributing in a constructive, rather than largely destructive, way.

But then I’m bound to say that as a paid up archaeologist and hence member of the secret cabal / ignorant academics I suppose.

5:19 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

"Edward said...

The Egyptians are at it again aye..? ...

People on the net will believe whatever they want, with whatever twisted or warped or misinterpreted evidence they see fit. There's no filter, so all sorts of crap gets through. ...
It never ceases to amaze me how little the net anons are interested or aware of genuine archaeological scholarship, but will happily lap up anything remotely resembling a bad Wilbur Smith novel... It's a real shame their interest in the past isn't focused into contributing... rather than largely destructive, way.

But then I’m bound to say that as a paid up archaeologist and hence member of the secret cabal / ignorant academics I suppose."

Most of them are actually racist in their world view, if they are not simply stupid. They wont accept that Polynesian, black or other "inferior" people (especially if they are farmers in the Waikato (or e.g. the SI) and stand to gain from hanging on to rich lands they have stolen from these "inferior people" who are now standing up for their rights and becoming engineers, lawyers, writing novels (Albert Wendt, Keri Hulme to take 2 examples) etc etc) might be able to actually have been BETTER navigators (which they were) and have a SUPERIOR civilization to that of Europe.

8:07 pm  
Anonymous J walker said...

That's a bit of a generalization really. Just because you have people like Martin Doutre who have obvious racial agenda does not mean you can group all with interest as psuedo historians. I am intrigued by the subject and have every right to argue as to what I see, just as you do. It excites me to think there might be more to the history of our country and the pacific than what is widely accepted today. Not once have I spoken badly of Maori.

10:55 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

Its a generalization indeed, but it is true one, and most of the anon's have a racist can tell by the way they attempt to communicate.

But just trust me - the Egyptians didn't get within a fish's fart of getting anywhere by sea. Polynesians were here first and that is an exciting history they have. Just repeat that to yourself and you don't need to worry about anything else. The rest is too complicated for people. Because Maps and I and Edward - well we are EDUCATED and we know. We know these things...

As mathematicians say:

"It can be shown..."

3:41 pm  
Anonymous Anaru said...

hi there everbody, my name is Anaru Ruka and yes i am a decendant from waitaha i think??? im sad to say that i am ashamed at the claims my whanau have made. the thing is these Ruka that are making these claims are notably "CROOKS" by their peers that surround them. when i tell people my name, they say " do you know Pat Ruka?" and i say "yes" then they say "he's a crook and so are all his brother's" (these are the one's making the claims) then i just frown, its sad really, because its a reflection on me and im nothing like them; besides being passionate about my roots and wanting to know where i come from. i do think at one time in history we did come from egypt though, but not how it was explained by the ambitious words of my whanau (elders). stranger things have happened though, like when people started thinking the world was spherical and there could'nt be another people on the other side of it exsisting. but there we were sailing across the big blue ocean searching lol. so in the conclusion of my blog i say; until its discovered, dont believe it haha. i dont know waht i just said lol.

4:11 pm  
Anonymous Anaru said...

and also Maori were the first people here, these guys (my family) are just trying to get a piece of the rubbarb pies down there in te waipounamu, its all about the mullah. im Ngapuhi now, what ever roots i have down there i leave to the people who stayed there and never moved, but no doubt i will support them always. i just dont think its fair to go in and start claiming things when my tupuna left that place and settled up north in tahekeroa where i come from.

4:22 pm  
Blogger Liz said...

Scott I've had a talk with the manager of the Dargaville Museum about the Pou. The signage has been changed and states where it was found and who found it.I've been to the museum within the last couple of weeks and viewed it. The site was not properly excavated. The artifact was pulled out of the sand by campers. By sheer chance I came across published notes held in digital format by the Whangarei District Library. It was a set of notes from the Hobson County Council (pre-amalgamation days) included was a 1980s news clipping about the discovery of the pou. I'll send you a copy of the PDF it makes for very disturbing reading. There are numerous mentions of sites being disturbed and the NZHPT not being informed of these sites. I shudder to think how many sites have been destroyed because of ignorance.

7:03 am  
Blogger Badger H .Bloomfield said...

30 years ago I uncovered some strange shaped concreted stones and boulders of various sizes .. some showed resemblances to face profiles - being a curious individual with Engineering and Polynesian restorative art experience I removed the limestone coating {limestone concretion }dissolving them with Citric acid and Coke .. the results were amazing .the carved matrix was exposed revealing many carved tools weapons jewellery . these Taonga are available to be viewed at the .Badgers Den " Ancient Carved Stone Collection ..Dannevirke .Dr Hamish Campbell Senior Scientist estimated of G.N.S. estimated the "in situ" positioning as million years old .I have a 100% result of viewers opinion as them being carved by human hands ...NOT natural grooves as many non viewers would state ...The designs and forms are NOT of Archaic Maori design ....Badger Bloomfield

9:57 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is not the accepted history of humanity getting whipped of late, thankfully. I have much enjoyed reading both views, thank you all.

Cosmic Dragon

11:28 pm  
Blogger Unknown said...

Us kiwi's really are a closed minded bunch aren't we. All this talk of 'scholars' digging up ideas from what they see in front of them. I would like to ask what proof do you have that Waitaha and their stories didn't exist? I think that because you can't see the visible proof that is not grounds to write these peoples culture off completely. You don't have to believe it, but why not open your minds to the possibility that a nation existed here before the Maori arrivals our 'scholars' have identified. I think if you dig a little deeper you may find that the stories of Waitaha are not that far fetched. I am not aware of Waitaha wanting any financial or other benefit, apart from wanting their story to be heard. And it is a beautiful story. I also dare to say that there is evidence of 'pre-maori' history all around New Zealand. My knowledge is that most Maori tribes acknowledge the presence of a people pre-dating their arrival. They refer to them as Patupaiarehe among other names. They state that these were people not of 'them'. I challenge all the people who discredit the nation of Waitaha to look deeper into what the people of Waitaha are saying and open your minds to at least the possibility that our beloved scholars may have got things wrong. People do get things wrong sometimes. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter if you believe the nation of Waitaha existed or not because even if you write something in a book you can't change history.

10:21 pm  
Anonymous Scott Hamilton said...

'I am not aware of Waitaha wanting any financial or other benefit, apart from wanting their story to be heard.'

Errm. The whole Waitaha scam was cooked up as a way of ripping of gullible people like you:

The scamsters make money taking deluded New Age tourists around Waitaha 'sacred sites' and helping them 'talk' with dolphins and doing other silly things.

'I think that because you can't see the visible proof that is not grounds to write these peoples culture off completely'

Yes it is. A hue and supersophisticated civilisation of the sort the Waitahans claim existed here would have left innumerable traces of its existence. The Waitaha scamsters argue that their ancestors had spaceships and travelled between the stars and built huge cities. Where are the artefacts? Metal lasts a long time in the ground, as do ceramics. Why is there no evidence of large-scale forest clearance in NZ before the last thousand years? Why are there no skeletons of the Waitahans buried under the tephra left by the Taupo eruptions, if there were hundreds of thousands of these people living here thousands of years ago?

'My knowledge is that most Maori tribes acknowledge the presence of a people pre-dating their arrival.'

No they don't, but even if they did it wouldn't be grounds for believing in such a people. What counts is evidence.

'They refer to them as Patupaiarehe among other names.'

Patupaiarehe are supernatural creatures that are supposed to live in the forests, just as taniwha live in rivers. They are as real as the fairy people that Europeans invented, like Ireland's leprechauns.

Bring me an artefact, anonymous - a piece of that spaceship that the Waitaha people supposedly flew to earth, perhaps - and I might change my opinion.

9:22 am  
Blogger Oracle said...

With out deviating from the 'norm' progress can not be achieved.
Lets not argue semantics.
Lets undertake an open and honest examination to this lands past.
Lets look pre Waka.
No redacted reports.
No embargoed reports.
No forbidden questions.
No protectionist attitudes.

It is time now to open this issue to full examination, scientific, anecdotal, mythological.
Through this process we will grow and 'progress'.
As matters stand polarised positions prevail,
pitting academia vs sydo-
nothing advances,
nothing is achieved,
both remain in the darkness of ignorance.
This is the challenge I throw down to both camps-
pick it up or shut up.

10:02 am  
Anonymous Scott Hamilton said...

That's a rather portentous statement, Oracle. I don't think, though, that you have a very realistic picture of the state of research into the history of these islands and the region in which they sit.

In the real world, thousands of people - archaeologists, historians, ethnographers, art historians, museum curators, oral folklorists, local historians, and so on - are regularly at work investigating and discussing the history of the Pacific. They give talks, mount exhibitions, publish papers and essays and books, run websites. There's nothing stopping you engaging with their research and with the various arguments in which they're involved. There are no forbidden questions or hidden artefacts, and the discourse involves scholars from across the Pacific as well as Europe and America. I've just been up in Tonga giving a lecture on nineteenth century history and talking with historians there.

In order to engage with researchers, though, you need to argue rationally and use evidence.
The Universal Peace Nation of Waitaha isn't engaged in any debate about the past, because it's a scam rather by a set of fantasists who think their ancestors came to earth on UFOs and think they can talk telepathically with dolphins. They're irrelevant, except to the extent that people have to warned about their scams.

I hope you can find your way out of all that smoky rhetoric into the light of research and debate.

11:19 am  
Blogger Oracle said...

Ha ha..... MAPS you miss the point.
You are so far up your acedemic posterior you have lost vision!

Many investigations into NZ pre-history are embargoed by Govt order, you know that and by avoiding comment perpetuate ignorance in defense of you intellectual trap- your world will unravel.

My comment did not support or mention waitaha, but you tie it to that and UFO's- WTF!

A full investigation in to NZ pre Maori history threatens Treat claims, the status quo and other cultural/political agendas- preventing evidence making is way to academic and public arenas.

By definition- Archaeology reveals tomorrow what is undiscovered or unknown yesterday. To hold fast to a view of (NZ) history without entertaining modification is the ignorance I allude to.

Stop wrapping your self in the protection of peers. Pick up the challenge and undertake 'fresh' investigation to this lands long rich past. Really- come on you are not so steadfast to be unable to recognise the absolute possibility that a large, lush land, abundant in resources, food, water- all the economics to support people- existed forever an empty land- what until just a few hundreds of years ago undiscovered!1250ACE is very, very recent.

I predict, in the few years you have left on this Earth, evidence will surface that will turn your world upside down. You will go to your grave kicking and screaming- "this is not possible, everything I've defended is a lie"! echo echo echo..........

The challenge I put forth was cast off your dusty perspectives and look with UNBIASED eyes at new possibilities, they will lead to new evidence and new knowledge showing us what we know today is subject to modification tomorrow.

Dig deep my friend.

2:44 pm  
Anonymous Scott Hamilton said...

Same old cliches, Oracle. I haven't bothered to follow the pseudo-historical 'whites/Atlanteans/Martians were here first' scene closely in recent years, but nothing seems to have changed. There's the same old stuff about a conspiracy to hide the truth - a conspiracy that'd have to involve thousands of scholars around the world - the silly charge that revelations about a pre-Maori civilisation would affect the legitimacy of the treaty, and the promises of world-changing revelations that somehow never come. Boring.

And while you're wasting your time repeating this stuff in the comments threads under old posts, the real research goes on. If you want to see what revelations about a previously hidden history look like, check out the scholarship - most of it by other people, a little by myself - that I've just been discussing in Tonga:

Get back to me when you have some research and some evidence to show off, instead of these stale old talking points. A single artefact from under the tephra, a single ancient pollen spore with rats marks, a single sword or piece or pottery from this great civilisation that disappeared without trace.

5:11 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

Oracle. Your 'history' is based on the theme that what hasn't been proved is true. It is like religions of various kinds. Not all people who are religious have such a simplistic view and are aware of that in what some people call the real world, you require evidence. It cant be based on a place being 'empty' for thousands of years or not. That is simply something we don't know about. What you are doing really is you are desperate that your myth might be true or that it is true.

But you need to show it to be true. True there are reasonable limits of error etc and there are always areas of doubt. But to this date most archaeologists and others agree that - for example - Maori migrated from Asia over approx. 40,000 years and made their way to NZ. There is no evidence of anything else really. If such good evidence surfaced all those involved would re-evaluate.

It is not to say that speculation of alternatives is wrong. But to assert that one knows requires a lot of research and some intelligent faith. Or some kind of mad leap of faith. In that case you can say you "know" alternative theories. The trouble is you cant really make much impact as historians, sociologists and scientists generally rely on carefully examined research and evidence. It is like being a detective. You arrive on the case not sure of anything, and slowly eliminate all the suspects. You need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you want to go into philosophy it is true that knowledge verification, in theory, is very difficult. But in reality we work as if these subtle exceptions can be put aside (say that the evidence was all planted by Aliens to lead us astray, or we have missed certain evidence despite years of digging and studying and many reports and so on).

Rhetoric is useful and we all use it in certain situations, but it wont prove your point here.

8:45 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

Actually it wasn't "Maori" who migrated as such, but people from around Asia.
It you want to believe alternative theories - and if these fairy folk seem real to you - then that is o.k.

That and the taniwha are, to me, simply mythology.

8:47 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

don't know if this has been noted...but the complaint against Maori TV for its show about Martin Doutre and convicted rapist Alan Titford has been dismissed...

10:34 pm  
Anonymous Scott Hamilton said...

Yes, it's the old argument from ignorance, Richard:

Oracle asks us to 'dig deep', but I doubt he's ever done a research dig in his life: not in the soil, or in a library archive, or anywhere else. If there really was a massive and advanced pre-Maori civilisation here, as folks like the Waitahans and Martin Doutre claim, then all one would need to do is dig. Just as the Brits can't dig a reasonably deep hole without uncovering all manner of Roman stuff - roads, coins, swords, pottery, and so on - so we should be able to find, even without looking specifically for them, all manner of material from our lost civilisation. No conspiracy could possibly keep the evidence at bay. But Doutre and co can't show us a single piece of metalwork or pottery or other artefact. All they do is whinge on the internet.

I thought they might have second thoughts when their pinup boy Alan Titford got sent away for rape and arson and dissimulation a couple of years ago, but they've simply incorporated the Titford case into their conspiracy theory. He was supposedly framed up because he dared to question the established view of NZ history...

10:22 am  
Blogger Richard said...

That is a good link. That area of philosophy was what most interested me I think: that is, for example, knowledge criteria and a posteriori and a priori considerations. As it shows there, there are several states such as true, false, and others. Because something is true of false doesn't mean that we can know it in either case so the argument from 'because we cant see X (we cant see air can we?) means that it is surely there' but sometimes these seem very difficult for people. And I mean that without being sarcastic (Doutre etc are part of another problem but they use these false arguments as do SOME religious people): it is a fact that to have knowledge of something it is necessary to believe it (feel strongly about it perhaps) but that doesn't mean you have knowledge of it. The thing believed in has to be true but it has to be proved true (often difficult). But at that point, while it is good to be skeptical 'for the sake of argument', it doesn't mean that existing knowledge (which is never absolute so if we went on the argument of ignorance or argument of total and absolute knowledge we would have to invoke revelation rather than science, and it is interesting how say, the Seventh Day Adventists and others who want to argue how the world is getting worse (it could well be) or to argue about evolution (even Darwin wasn't happy about evolutionary theory, and he was still more or less a Christian most of his life I think), all these people are getting muddle wuddled up.

But you are also dealing with people who are simply racist in the worst way. Or they feel that they are being curtailed by academics and scientists when these people, and philosophers and others who are supposedly academics, have many debates about these issues. They can be wrong of course...

But Oracle clearly hasn't done any systematic digging. It he did and presented some papers and evidence and could show artifacts etc we could all study these. If it DID show such evidence then we would have to check out it wasn't another Piltdown man hoax, and if not, then, well, yes, the Aliens were in Aotearoa first. If so, where do we go from there?

It all derives mostly though, from a kind of white supremacist idea that Maori or people who are dark skinned are not as good as white people. And there are many Maori and others of a dark skin who believe this also such is the power of the Eurocentric propaganda system. This will grow less as Europe and the USA etc become less and less important in world affairs.

It makes me think of Hitler who said, when the black athletes beat his German master race athletes, that the black people had an extra muscle in their legs!!

4:28 pm  
Blogger Richard said...

Yes that Titford. He burned down his own buildings and blamed it on Maori. What an arsehole. He is also a convicted sex offender. And they support his theories (made up as he wanted to use Maori land etc). These people are potentially dangerous.

There are conspiracies and conspiracies. They do occur. But in this case I am afraid the conspiracy comes from those who are white supremacists.

Sad case of people who are bitter and perhaps challenged in many ways.

Such people use rhetoric (which is something we all use sometimes) but they rely on it and rely on facile statements.

It is good you are fighting this and showing the history of NZ is not just some stupid war in Europe for Churchill or Kitchener but the NZ wars which dispossessed Maori in the 1860s to about 1880. Those wars and NZ history are what we need to focus much more on.

(Not to neglect European and other history of course.)

4:38 pm  
Blogger jt said...

Why is the Pou not standing at Waikaretu Marae, Pouto? They are related not matter how far it goes back. The Marae was moved several times as you know the seas, the winds, the sands, the weather, destroys and changes everything around.

There are the stories of old, that alot of Marae's (in the north) took down their pou, carvings, when warring with other tribes, so they could not steal their whenua by knowing the whakapapa, therefore the pou, carvings were buried.

The other story is when christianity came, tangata te whenua were told again, to take their tupuna, pou down, as they were evil, so again they were hidden and buried.

We would really like it back at Waikaretu please.

Marlene West

12:36 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was sitting in the control room at ANU Nuclear Physics on the night which a Kiwi researcher had her samples going through on the C14 line. This was one of the most accurate C14 dating machines on the planet, at the time.

The researcher had explained, that she had recovered a jaw bone of a rat in a cave under a geological layer of a significant event.
Our group was waiting to use the control room, and we were watching each C14 atom come in and hit the detector. A small counter displayed the estimated age of each sample.

Of course, we were all sitting around astounded at the dates ... very significant.

This researcher, was hounded out of NZ by people like the above posters. Her funding was cut, and she was threatened.

Investigators of archaeological relics, should not fear this sort of treatment. Even if you publish the Truth - you are condemned and crucified by people whose emotions and financial interests.

Preservation of stone age antiquated beliefs is coming at the expense of real science.


Dr ✯Ново-Зеландия✯

3:36 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exactly! I'm so sick of all the Pakeha saying Waitaha were all white. Yes they came there's much evidence of that inc the Kaimanawa wall...but not white! Maori legends describe the different hues of the people who were here when the waka arrived.

8:42 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

your an absolute idiot and a normal ranting kiwi maori dribble lover with no facts at all to what you say .. first you say the musuem had no trained historian or archiologists work there ,he alone is both you imbosile. noel was head of the nz historical society for years you mug he is expert in history , he stood down with all trained and proper experts in the society when it became aparent the blatant fabrication of everything related to the group of assorted islanders kicked out of their islands like kuper for pedofilia on his brothers daughter , these people now call themeselves maori for some reason and forgot where they came from. Also your claim hes banned from museum ITS HIS MUSUEM he when found all those artifacts with his team of archiologoists . you are poison women do your grandad a favour and fucken kill yourself now, cause in the law of utu , bitch you got hell to pay for your shit mouth kunt. spoken in true native kiwi language you fuck , ill send you back the fucken islands in a box cunt!

5:10 am  

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