Thursday, March 12, 2009

Organic yohurt, tofu - and neo-Nazi nutbars?


Harvest Whole Foods is more than a store – it’s the hub of a community. Situated at the leafy, liberal end of Richmond Road, a few minutes’ stroll from the ostentatiously scruffy Grey Lynn Community Gardens, the large retail arm of the organic-only Huckleberry Farms Company caters to a distinct set of inner-city subcultures. The flyers and brochures left near the doors of Harvest Whole Foods reveal some of the social, political, and spiritual features of the milieu the store attracts – alongside advertisements for ‘Advanced Yogic Sex’, one finds calling cards for organisations like Greenpeace and Save Animals from Exploitation, and appeals for donations to help emancipate Turkish dancing bears.

I have been paying occasional visits to Harvest Whole Foods ever since I met my beloved civil union partner, Skyler. Like many of the store’s most enthusiastic customers, Skyler considers herself a part of the amorphous but strong ‘green alternative’ community represented by those leaflets beside the doors. I blame her parents, who are Steiner teachers and veterans of the folk music scene of the sixties. They deprived the poor girl of meat (it was murder), plastic toys (dangerous chemicals), and Dr Who (too many cheap scary BBC monsters) during her formative years.

Luckily for me, the excellent Time Out bookshop is located across the road from Harvest Whole Foods, and I’m normally able to make my excuses and leave Skyler to do the shopping after putting a token organic banana in our basket. A couple of weeks ago, though, I found myself morbidly attracted to Harvest Whole Food’s magazine rack. I’d always avoided looking too closely at the rack before – I was afraid that it might contain cooking magazines that Skyler would insist on buying for me, in the hope of broadening my repertoire of dishes beyond burnt bangers and mash and greasy burgers.

I was intrigued, though, when I realised that the only periodical on the rack that covered current events and politics was Uncensored, the magazine founded by the well-known pornographer Steve Crow. The genius behind Boobs on Bikes offloaded Uncensored a year or so ago, and the magazine is currently published by a collective based in Point Chevalier. Uncensored is stocked by a number of newsagents and bookshops around Auckland, but in these outlets it is only one of many periodicals devoted to current events and politics that are offered for sale. The fact that Uncensored was the only political periodical at Harvest Whole Foods suggested, to me at least, that the proprietors regarded it as more interesting than others, or at least as more in line with the philosophy of Harvest Whole Foods than others. The location of the magazine rack in the middle of Harvest Whole Foods and the placement of Uncensored at eye-level on the rack meant that most visitors to the store must have seen it.

I duly added a copy of the latest issue of Uncensored to Skyler’s basket. I’d never actually bothered to open the magazine before, and I was soon dismayed to see that many of the contributors appear to believe that a conspiracy of Jews controls world events, and is responsible for disasters like the 9/11 attacks and the invasion of Iraq. The cover of the magazine presented President Obama as the tool of a Jewish conspiracy; an article called 'The Unspeakable Truth of 9/11' insisted that the Israeli spy agency Mossad orchestrated the attacks on the World Trade Centre; and a piece called 'The Real Agenda behind the Monetary Crisis' claimed that the world's media is 'Jewish-occupied' and that Jews control the American Federal Reserve.

Uncensored appeared to have an obsession with Jews: certainly, the magazine's writers missed no opportunity to slip anti-semitic language into their texts. The anti-semitism could be pathetically petty, as well as grandioisely paranoid: in one article, for instance, Monica Lewinsky was described as Bill Clinton's 'chunky Jewish girlfriend'. A quick internet search revealed that the author of that piece, one Christopher Bollyn, writes for an American publication called the Barnes Review, which regularly praises Hitler and denies that the Holocaust ever took place. Other contributors seemed to have similarly impeccable pedigrees. More disturbingly, perhaps, Uncensored also featured work by local members of the far right.

 Near the back of the issue I found a rambling article called 'Suppressed Ancient History of New Zealand' by Martin Doutre, a man who has become notorious over the past decade for his claims that ancient Celts arrived in New Zealand thousands of years ago, before being conquered and eaten by the ancestors of the Maori in relatively recent times (the idnefatigable Matthew Dentith has taken Doutre's latest article apart here). Doutre denies the Holocaust, maintains close ties with notorious Kiwi neo-Nazi Kerry Bolton, and is a leading member of the One New Zealand Foundation, whose leader Ross Baker is fond of making statements like ‘thank God I’m not a Maori’.

Harvest Whole Foods, with its organic food and its rhetoric about the environment, likes to represent itself as an 'alternative' to the cultural mainstream of New Zealand. But not everything that poses as 'alternative' is necessarily good. Uncensored certainly presents 'alternative', minority views of events like the 9/11 attacks, the Holocaust, and New Zealand history, but this does not mean it contributes anything useful to discussions about those subjects.

After wading all the way through Uncensored, I decided to e mail Dave Spalter, the chief executive of Huckleberry Farms, the company that supplies and runs Harvest Whole Foods and several similar shops around the country. I pointed Spalter in the direction of the article I wrote about Martin Doutre and his circle for the Scoop Review of Books last year, and the lengthy, vitriolic, and very revealing debate the piece had prompted.

In a matter of hours of Spalter replied. He said that he had already decided to stop stocking Uncensored, and that my e mail had reinforced his decision. Spalter said that he had ‘never looked’ at Uncensored properly until very recently, but that he was now aware that it was ‘a disgraceful and harmful publication’ that did not deserve any favours. Spalter revealed that he is Jewish, and admitted that he was ‘a little embarrassed’ that it had taken him ‘until now to discover the content of the magazine’. Spalter did not explain how Uncensored began receiving such favourable treatment at Harvest Whole Foods in the first place.

Harvest Whole Foods’ decision to dump Uncensored might seem like a no-brainer, but it raises some interesting questions about censorship, responsibility, and the power of retailers. As I read Spalter’s e mail, I began to wonder whether I had made a mistake in contacting him. Why had I accepted that a business owner had the right to decide what his customers read, by directing my concerns about Uncensored to him, and not to the customers themselves? Why had I expected moral leadership from a man who made punters pay ridiculous sums of money for tiny tubes of funny-smelling shampoo and organic tampons? And wasn’t I becoming a censor, by reinforcing Spalter‘s decision to remove Uncensored from his store?

Although I’m happy that the Jew-baiters and Maori-bashers in Uncensored will no longer get most favoured magazine status at Harvest Whole Foods, I’m not entirely comfortable with the idea that retailers should be the arbiters of what the public can and can’t read. I think that publications reflecting the full range of political thought, from the far left to the swampy centre to the extreme right, should be stocked by bookshops and newsagents. I wouldn’t be in favour of attempts to remove Uncensored from NZ Post shops or Borders Bookshop or Magazinno. At Harvest Whole Foods, though, Uncensored was the only political publication on display, and its mere presence seemed like an endorsement. I think that, instead of removing Uncensored, Dave Spalter might have legitimately decided to complement it with a range of other journals – journals from the sane parts of the right, as well as from the left – whose contents contradict the paranoid confabulations of Doutre, Bollyn, and co.

Doutre and his co-thinkers tend to conflate the defence of critical standards, the making of formal complaints, and outright censorship, but it is important for us to understand the difference between these measures. During the recent debate at the Scoop Review of Books, Doutre repeatedly complained of being the target of ‘witch hunts’ and ‘persecution’. With a certain unconscious irony, Doutre segued from a defence of Holocaust denier David Irving to the claim that I was a ‘bellowing fascist’ because I called on editors not to embarrass themselves by publishing his exercises in pseudo-history. Suggestions that Doutre might be the subject of complaints to the Press Council and the Race Relations Conciliator only confirmed him in his beliefs that his critics were ‘Marxist control freaks’ who wanted to consign him to a gulag somewhere in the wastes of Waiouru.

Criticism is not censorship. It is not censorious of me to suggest that Doutre’s claims that New Zealand was once inhabited by greenstone-carving leprechauns do not meet the standards set by serious scholars of our history, and therefore don’t belong in journals that want to discuss our history in a serious way.

Nor is there anything repressive in suggesting that Doutre and other contributors to magazines like Uncensored would be fair game for the Press Council and the Race Relations Conciliator’s office. The Press Council is a non-governmental body which allows journalists to reprimand their peers; the Race Relations Conciliator is on the public payroll, but he is just as independent of elected politicians as the Ombudsman. Neither the Race Relations Conciliator nor the Press Council has the power to ban a publication or silence an author. What both can do very effectively is damage the credibility of a writer or publication, by exposing rampant mendacity.

I’m currently part of a small group which is investigating the possibility of making a formal complaint against Doutre and some of his publishers to the Press Council. We’ll keep you posted.

36 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Leaving aside for a moment the ethics of free speech in regard to the rabid ramblings of "Uncensored", I feel you;re being a bit kneejerk yourself in satirising the products of shops such as Harvest. The politics of food are more complex and fluid than you indicate. It was that farsighted and ecumenical institution, the Italian Communist Party, which founded the Slow Food Movement, dedicated to eating local, eating seasonal, eating organic, eating at home. Harvest supplies the mean to do this, to those of us living in cities. I'm with Skyler on this one.

1:17 pm  
Blogger Skyler said...

Maps, you skip over my upbringing, making broad statements to illustrate your point. Though I support Harvest and like shopping there, we don't go in that often (or only for essentials I can't find anywhere else).

I agree with the Anonymous about Harvest - it does give those of us who live in cities a chance to eat organic healthier food.

You also forgot to mention to your readers that you often request to visit Mamata Bakehouse (next door to Harvest) - which sells mostly organic food.

Good to hold Uncensored, Doutre, Bolten etc in check but don't attack Harvest (who did the right thing by pulling Uncensored and do a good job with their store) or people like me. As you know political movements, fringe ideas or anything "alternative" can attract some nutters (people leaving weird pamphlets in Harvest) but that doesn't mean that the main idea is flawed.

1:42 pm  
Blogger maps said...

Uh-oh. Looks like I'll be doing the cooking tonight. Sausages, Skyler? ;)

2:18 pm  
Blogger Skyler said...

as long as they are organic and made of tofu!

2:42 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It’s difficult to wrap comprehension around a theory which has so many holes and conveinient loose ends that Piltdown Man could pilot a Mac Truck through it.

5:13 pm  
Blogger Giovanni said...

The flyers and brochures left near the doors of Harvest Whole Foods reveal some of the social, political, and spiritual features of the milieu the store attracts

Deconstructing health food store brochures now? I thought you were against such things.

7:06 pm  
Blogger maps said...

Oh c'mon!

7:51 pm  
Blogger Giovanni said...

Who, me? I'm never going to let you live that down, sorry.

I'd like to thank the top anonymous in this thread who reminded me about the glorious early days of Arcigola! Glorious. I had no idea that that's where Slow Food eventually came from - I left Italy by then.

7:54 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

All this organic non-meat stuff is dubious.

Meat is good - look the real problem with people's eating is they simply eat too much. The food bought at say Pak n' Save' food isn't greatly less "organic" than anywhere else. People who don't know science get confused on this - plastic for example is an organic chemical (long chain carbon compound structured much like human tissue); oil (from which petrol and plastics are made) is organic - it is made up of animalia and plants - albeit deceased and hugely compressed millions of years ago...

Water is an inorganic chemical...

These people go on about "chemicals"
There is nothing the universe which is not a chemical.

The problem is basically too many calories. In essence I lost weight not by changing what I ate (I did concentrate on smaller meals and more vegetables to meat and less things such as chesse and crackers...mainly the cheese as I had tendency to "binge" on cheese and crackers.. but thereis nothing inherently wrong with cheese or meat or eggs...) but mainly by eating less and eating a certain amount of calories per day.

I also avoided buying foods that were "addictive" to me.

And I don't eat potato chips, much chocolate or biscuits and with my meal I eat broccoli and potatoes etc with meat - and one can get excellent meat at Pak n' Save or Countdown.

I mean, re meat, has anyone ever seen a healthy cat! Cats eat meat almost exclusively!! Cats are beautiful, powerful animals.

10:15 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

"...was soon dismayed to see that many of the contributors appear to believe that a conspiracy of Jews controls world events, and is responsible for disasters like the 9/11 attacks and "...the invasion of Iraq. The cover of the magazine presented President Obama as the tool of a Jewish conspiracy; an article called 'The Unspeakable Truth of 9/11' insisted that the Israeli spy agency Mossad orchestrated the attacks on the World Trade Centre; and a piece called 'The Real Agenda behind the Monetary Crisis' claimed that the world's media is 'Jewish-occupied' and that Jews control the American Federal Reserve..."

Yes this stuff is dangerous - these people simplify things into "The Moslems are to blame..." or "The Jews..." or whoever, they rarely give examples - my son was reading a site that said that the Rothschilds were in control of the World Bank and the Federal Reserve...so I showed him how those making these allegations used adjectives that implied they were animalistic, or monstrous, even vampires - the words describing the Rothschilds included "tentacles", "preyed", and they had "sired" (there were more) - added to that they were not actually Jews - they had lied and were in fact Askenhatzy Jews who were or are not Jews!

I showed him a book was reading where there were extensive notes - he had never seen such a book (a lot of people don't check out books or read "pamphlet " or "raves" and they want to believe it - there are rarely any sources quoted - most people don't know how or aren't trained how to see what is outright propaganda and what is well researched non fiction) - he didn't realise that information needs to be at least confirmed or verified or "connected" in some believable way (this is why I hate talk back - people tend to rave on and on with no verification or back up to what they are saying) ... of course all writing is in some way subjective - but there should be more balance.

Then I myself looked up the Rothschilds - one of them in fact contributed huge numbers of insects from his collection to a museum in England - if he was as the people who were blaming him; bent on on world domination, and to a secret program of extermination, and was so evil, then why donate to a museum?

There are conspiracies. It is possible the Mossad, and or the CIA, or some or certain capitalists, did have a hand in 9/11 - but it doesn't follow that "the Jews" (or anyone else) (even The Capitalists) are "running" the world finances...no one is - Capitalism is like a machine driven by supply and demand and market forces. No one group or race or company or country can control these forces or "run" them. Currently we are in period of over supply. This will pass.

Of course Big Money has a lot of power but the real power ultimately lies in he hands of the people.

11:02 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

I didn't mean to say that vegetarianism or that being careful what one eat is not good.

I have no problem eating meat however myself - and I get excellent food and probably the cheapest from Count Down.

It is just that there are a lot of misconceptions - and vegans will find it harder to avoid the dangers of low vitamin B levels - and young people who are growing need certain amino acids in proteins not available as easily in non meats - they are available, but they are harder to obtain. People of all ages for example can be affected by low absorption of B12 (but usually older people but I know of one young man who has monthly B12 injections) or if they reduce red meat intake rapidly B12 levels (and possibly iron and other B vitamins may reduce - this happened to me. If anyone is intending to diet or become a vegan it is advisable to take Vit B supplements or multi vitamins I use both) - the effects of B12 deficiency can be accumulative over several years while some are immediate. It's best to get fairly regular blood tests and medical advice.

The whole organic food thing lends itself to misconceptions and even fraud.

11:19 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Richard Taylor your a Satanist who admits eating kids (or else in youre sick fantasies you would like to! )

You never contribute ANYTHING positive or in support of evolution; you merely pop out from under their rocks, take a few cheap potshots at creationists, and crawl back. Yor only contribution is insults and then they whine about how the crevo threads never actually discuss science. Well, no kidding!!!!!

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

Think for minute why don't you. Think.

Just THINK.

I can feel God's love in my heart. I don't think He has ever talked to my brain, but I know He has talked to my heart.
You may find this strange, but when I was saved, I felt the love of God flood my heart. It was an incredible feeling. Like every deep hole in my heart was suddenly flooding with love. I have fallen astray at times and the love will dwindle, but when I pray it comes back. I honestly can't wait for the day that He writes his laws in my heart and signs his name at the bottom. I only hope that I will be worthy enough to follow all the laws. Right now, I try to follow those laws, but I fall short. One day, I hope I will stand my ground for Him.

I am not going to debate the existence of God and so on, because I know there is a God. There is nothing that anyone can say to me that will change what is in my heart. And He gave us all free will and who am I to take that away. So, I respect your thoughts, but I don't agree with them. So, maybe you could respect what we think and don't worry about debating us. You would have to change what is in our heart, not our mind. And I would add that you have a mighty task ahead of you.

And it is amazing that as I write this, my heart is filling with love again. I rejoice in this feeling. Nothing on this planet can compare.

The Bibles I have read speak against lying and spreading rumors - seeing that you appear to have no problems with those behaviors I assumed that you used a Bible different than most.

Oh yes that's right Richard - YOU READ A SATANIC BIBLE!!!!

In any case, I read an article about diet. The Doctor who wrote it says that meat eaters have space between their teeth. That is why a lion does not need a toothpick. He says our prehistoric ancestors at fruits and vegetation from the ground. According to our teeth. Also, he says our intestinal track reflects that of a plant eater and not a meat eater. And our stomach has 20% less acid then meat eaters do. Other differences are our saliva glands. Meat eaters don't have to pre digest their food. Our glands reflect the glands of plant eaters.

He says we turned to meat during the stone age and last ice age. Also, he says that we have developed disease from eating meat. So, according to this article on alive, I am not getting where our bodies evolved to eat meat since the last ice age. This article says our bodies are rejecting meat and we should go back to a plant diet.

Animals cannot evolve quickly enough to respond to climatic variation. They can only modify their diets, their behavior, or perhaps migrate. That's why evolution didn't happen. If it did we'd all be dead!

So Richard,

How do you destroy mountains.

Particularly mountains that are mostly submerged already.

You can't!

Only God can!

The arm of the Red Sea, where Moses and the Israelites are presumed to have crossed, is long and shallow. From time to time a steady, strong wind will blow directly down that arm, toward the main body of the Red Sea.

If it continues for a day or so, it can blow almost all of the water away from that part of the sea floor. When the wind stops (or changes direction) the water can come back very quickly.

A religious person can choose to believe that this occurred as critical divine intervention on behalf of Moses. After all, nobody could possibly prove otherwise.

I am not religious, so I am more inclined to think of coincidence. It doesn't take much as it might seem, because Moses have been aware of this phenomenon, and planned his path accordingly, when he observed how the wind had been blowing.

nOW there's no way to prove that this event even occurred, but the historical record says that it did - it's known to be possible, and there is no good reason to believe that it did not.

But of course Stanists don't agree!

1:31 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's a Stanist?

9:56 am  
Blogger maps said...

Getting back to the main subject of the post: I've just been to the Uncensored website, and I see that their brand new issue includes the article (you can't read it online but I've seen the title) 'Was the Anne Frank Diary a Hoax?'

I also see that Uncensored is organising a 'symposium' for April the 26th - it 's supposed to be held in the Mt Albert Hall, and the Holocaust denial and anti-Maori activist Martin Doutre will be speaking. I wonder whether the people of Mt Albert would want their community asset to be used by neo-Nazis, conspiracy theory nuts, and similar types?

10:08 am  
Blogger Giovanni said...

I wonder whether the people of Mt Albert would want their community asset to be used by neo-Nazis, conspiracy theory nuts, and similar types?

You've gots to do something about that. Flood the venue with people at the very least.

10:11 am  
Blogger maps said...

I don't fancy paying fprty bucks to get in.

I was thinking either of informing the community about the event, in case they decide it's not what they want to have in their midst, or else organising a protest outside.

I think that the people who publish rubbish whitewashing Hitler and running down Maori should be confronted by members of the communities they insult.

10:20 am  
Blogger Giovanni said...

I don't fancy paying fprty bucks to get in.

I was thinking either of informing the community about the event, in case they decide it's not what they want to have in their midst, or else organising a protest outside.


They're charging for it?! That seems optimistic of them.

If it's a community hall there is no way it should have been okayed, you shouldn't have too much trouble making them reverse that decision. If it's a private concern and patiently highlighting to them what's it actually about doesn't do it, I'm sure the community won't stand for it. But you obviously know what to do.

10:27 am  
Blogger maps said...

Matthew Dentith has some interesting things to say about Uncensored in his article on the new Doutre piece:

I can’t really speculate as to why Jonathan Eisen, the editor of ‘Uncensored,’ felt that this piece was worth publishing; given what else I’ve read of ‘Uncensored’ I can’t really tell what method they have for deciding what is printable and what is not; it may well be that ‘Uncensored’ is purely a contrarian magazine, designed to publish the material that is normally considered unpublishable.

Yet that seems too clever a motivation; ‘Uncensored’ seems more like the gutter of the gutter press than some clever, post-modern attempt to air alternative views.

http://all-embracing.episto.org/2009/02/24/doutre-the-uncensored-review/

Matthew also has some interesting things to say about postmodernism in a recent post:

http://all-embracing.episto.org/2009/03/04/de-fenstering-hegel/

10:47 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Watch an interview with the editor of Uncensored Jonathan Eisen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1yEpDQ49RM

Sounds like a complete nutter.

1:32 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

Look - it's not about deconstructing or destructing to whatever - the Nazis came from all kinds of philosophic traditions, some were Catholics, some Protestants, some Idealists (or idealists) of various kinds, some Marxists, or they had read (and distorted) Nietzsche) some started as rabble rousers, and others probably studied Hegel and Heidegger and whatever - the bulk of them were sick, sad (usually pretty ignorant) people.

Nazism is strong still, even in New Zealand, and other parts of the world.
But I doubt if being or not being "postmodernist" has any influence. We know what is right and wrong if we ask ourselves about what happened to Anne Frank - who did exist - and that story is perhaps - if not the most tragic and sad - terrifyingly symbolic of Nazism.

This meeting has to be stopped - the Left needs to deal to this Doutre if this is the topic of his talk. It cant be allowed to happen - it doesn't matter how it is stopped. This is how Hitler started...

6:28 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:01 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

Satanist Worrier Person -

I see that you are concerned that I might be Satanist, that you believe deeply in God and feel love. This is good. Here is my part reply to your post.

"In any case, I read an article about diet. The Doctor who wrote it says that meat eaters have space between their teeth. That is why a lion does not need a toothpick. He says our prehistoric ancestors at fruits and vegetation from the ground. According to our teeth. Also, he says our intestinal track reflects that of a plant eater and not a meat eater. And our stomach has 20% less acid then meat eaters do. Other differences are our saliva glands. Meat eaters don't have to pre digest their food. Our glands reflect the glands of plant eaters.

He says we turned to meat during the stone age and last ice age. Also, he says that we have developed disease from eating meat. So, according to this article on alive, I am not getting where our bodies evolved to eat meat since the last ice age. This article says our bodies are rejecting meat and we should go back to a plant diet."

This is not (completely) true - show the complete article. It is interesting though. We humans are not primarily or only meat eaters - it is just that as meat concentrates mostof what is in plants it is very valuable food in terms of energy (fats and thus eventually sugars), vitamins, and protein etc We may well have less HCL in our stomachs but most plant matter (more difficult to digest than meat as it has a lot of cellulose (which is the basis of paper or wood BTW) in it) is not good for us. You are BTW confirming evolution - that said we haven't evolved much since the ice age (certainly we probably ate more meant then) - humans are actually omnivorous. That is we are adapted to eat meat or vegetables, nuts and fruits etc (partly as we can use that or fires to soften the vegetables etc as necessary) - in fact only such animals cows or similar ruminant herbivores are properly adopted to eat vegetation - they have extra stomachs which assist in this - cows are thus called ruminants - horse's are not ... and so on. Meat doesn't cause disease unless it is not inspected - mostly it is great for us even eating a living animal is good for us - certain African tribes eat blood taken straight from a living cow. Blood is very nutritious. I have been eating meat all my life and so have many millions of people and if they don't eat too much - that is - they maintain a good BMI they will generally have good health. In fact one can die from lack of the nutrition in meat as much as as from overeating. But a diet with meat is a good diet with many things needed by the body

"Animals cannot evolve quickly enough to respond to climatic variation. They can only modify their diets, their behavior, or perhaps migrate. That's why evolution didn't happen. If it did we'd all be dead!"

This is not logical as far as I can see.
Animals can and do evolve quickly in some cases - mammals and insects are extremely adaptable...ever see a cockroach looking short of and idea of where to get something to eat? Or a rat? Humans are adapted because they have a complex culture and strategies for survival called tools etc this they have had for about 1 million years or even more...

You seem obsessed with this subject - why don't you do some courses on biology, anthropology etc?

Put this way there is more evidence that evolution is true than there is that there is a god or some mysterious being ruling over us - or life after death...

But, as this isn't primarily a religious site, maybe you should be putting your comments as questions? Thus you might learn...as you seem to have the interest and understanding to read doctor's comments.

These Nazis support those who killed millions of human beings to try to prove that they were the superior race on earth - does this fit in with your religious beliefs? Especially as you can see how they are distorting history - that is - they are lying?
If you haven't read The Diary of Anne Frank you should. She was highly intelligent and emotive girl who was finally captured in Holland when she was only 15 or so and died at Bergen-Belsen. Her diaries reveal she had potential to be a great writer (but all her life's potential whatever it would have been was wiped out by those who are like Doutre) - it was a tragic loss of human potential and life (and of course part of a greater tragedy)...?

If your God is good - would he condone such massive and brutal killing?

And, ergo, what do you feel about these Nazis such as Doutre?

9:30 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eisen and his neo-Nazi contributors have now begun to get to the point where they are actually inciting violence against jews.

Maybe they need a taste of their own medicine?

2:56 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The comments below found on the above link are typical of people, who like to ridicule & take cheap shots at so called 'conspiracy theorists',& at the same time have their egos massaged obtaining brownie points from their peers.

"I duly added a copy of the latest issue of Uncensored to Skyler’s basket. I’d never actually bothered to open the magazine before, and I was soon dismayed to see that many of the contributors appear to believe that a conspiracy of Jews controls world events, and is responsible for disasters like the 9/11 attacks and the invasion of Iraq. The cover of the magazine presented President Obama as the tool of a Jewish conspiracy; an article called 'The Unspeakable Truth of 9/11' insisted that the Israeli spy agency Mossad orchestrated the attacks on the World Trade Centre; and a piece called 'The Real Agenda behind the Monetary Crisis' claimed that the world's media is 'Jewish-occupied' and that Jews control the American Federal Reserve.

Uncensored appeared to have an obsession with Jews: certainly, the magazine's writers missed no opportunity to slip anti-semitic language into their texts. The anti-semitism could be pathetically petty, as well as grandioisely paranoid: in one article, for instance, Monica Lewinsky was described as Bill Clinton's 'chunky Jewish girlfriend'. A quick internet search revealed that the author of that piece, one Christopher Bollyn, writes for an American publication called the Barnes Review, which regularly praises Hitler and denies that the Holocaust ever took place. Other contributors seemed to have similarly impeccable pedigrees. "

I believe 9/11 was not carried out by 19 muslims co-ordinated by a man living in a cave in Afghanistan.
The sooner people realise this the sooner muslims will not be demonised the way they are now.

I also don't believe 9/11 was carried out by Jews, or Israelies, all the evidence points to the Neo Cons from wihin the 'Project for the New American Century' & the Military Industrial Complex.
I think the head of the snake could well be those at the head of the powerfull Banking Cartels that make up the Federal Reserve, I wouldn't know if these people are Jewish or not.
I also think that the number of Jews that perished in WW2 concentration camps is well short of 6 million, as for Hitler & the Nazis I think it's interesting how Germany went from a basket case economy to a powerfull militarised industrial nation in the space of 5 years, Germany couldn't have achieved this by itself.
Oh dear I can feel an 'anti semetic' accusation coming my way.




http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/76927/index.php

3:16 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is indymedia promoting anti-semitism by hosting vidoes like the one linked to above (see the link the nutter left at the nd of his comment)?

11:36 am  
Blogger Edward said...

In reply to the argument about our dietary evolution between anonymous and Richard.

I'm not sure who this 'Doctor' is but he obviously hasn't done his research properly. Hominids have always been omnivores. Not Herbivores, and not Carnivores. Omnivores. The end of the Pleistocene has nothing to do with it. Some species of australopithecines consumed some meat. I think the point he may have been making is that humans eat far too much meat now. Our evolutionary diet would have indeed consisted mostly of fruits, nuts and other vegetation. But we were also scavengers of large kills made by other predators. The archaeological record as well as our biology is evidence of this. Stone tools and associated midden (animal remains) reach right back into our prehistory.

However, I do think people eat far too much meat now, an unatural amount compared to the odd scap our ancestors would consume. The other point is that there is a chioce now in modernity where, in western society, we are free of subsistance based soley upon survival. The global market now affords us to pick and chooose our food from anywhere in the world, thus freeing our ability to assert ethics where food is concerned. In other words, we may have evolved with the capability to digest small portions of meat, but we are now in a position where we are free to choose. My partner is a vegetarian, and we have had many discussions on the issue of how humanity is only now in a position to apply ethics to animal foods in a truely meaningful way. Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope it helps clear things up.

12:45 pm  
Anonymous keri h said...

Thanks Maps, for the latest in the ongoing saga of Neo-Nazi & Celtic NZ nutdom, and for your lovely *extreme tolerance* towards some posters.

And thanks Edward, for pointing out that we are (and, as humans, mainly always have been - like our hominoid cousins) omnivores...

Look forward to hearing more from you Maps, and Matthew Denteith - I cannot bring myself to buy the scurrilous magazine - it's on a par with "Investigate."

4:13 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

Edward I agree mostly -but - what is TOO MUCH meat? We eat too much food overall (in the so called affluent or Western nations). This is habituation. Yes we are omnivores but there is no evidence that meat is harmful.

But this starts to split the issue between the issue of Nazis and the distortion of NZ's history and whether we should or shouldn't eat meat etc etc.

The point is we should all learn as much as we can about food etc - some the main culprits are large amounts of soft drinks, those "crispy" potatoes chips and so on. More fiber fruit as well as meat or other protein source

What are the ethics? Killing animals - we like other animals need to kill to survive. Cows etc are bred for milk and meat - I used to work in the Freezing works and eat my lunch in the slaughter house. I got used to seeing blood pouring from the necks of cattle. I also worked in the Offal department. This is called reality. My father designed Slaughter houses and so on at a major NZ freezing works.

To lose weight I was advised by my daughter who has done a Science and Psychology degree on Nutrition and weight issues. I also have studied biology (and science myself) and try to keep informed... as well as measuring my daily calorie intake I started walking each day and so on. Mens sana in corpore sano.

The other point - on the issues of Doutre and other neo? Nazis (if Doutre is a neo? Nazi (or just cuckoo)) we are all eagerly waiting the profound words from the eternally peripatetic Maps.

5:36 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

Hi Richard,
Yeah I do tend to go too far off on a tangent sometimes sorry lol. On the meat issue, how much too much is is out of my expertise so I guess i'll be leaving that one to a dietary scientist. Suffice to say over consumption is a problem. As for the ethics, I myself am not a vegetarian but I choose to make sure my food is free range. I grew up in the country and have killed what I have eaten before (much to the disgust of my partner) and am at terms with the fact that it isn't unnatural to eat some meat. However, ethics in a more concrete term I suppose is to do with the fact that we don't have to eat meat in most modern western societies. Therefore, if we no longer require it as a subsistence resource due to alternatives, than is the suffering of animals really ethical or necessary? There will be exceptions to the rule of course for health reasons etc. but on the whole if we don't have the survival need to cause suffering than why do it? Of course i'm a hypocrate because i'm not vegetarian, but I still think in general the most ethical option is not to eat meat.

Anyway, sorry again for going off topic.

As for Doutre et al. it is a slippery issue with regards to censorship. I, like maps would prob argue that such magazines should be allowed to be made, but not to the point where it can't be held responisble/answerable.

Anyway, I should be writing a thesis now so gotta go.

7:10 pm  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

Edward. Good points. Yes it is a problem of censorship.

Re meat - I have never killed an animal, I don't believe in it except I was going to eat that animal! And I would be governed by the thought of great meal not whether I could eat something non meaty! (I mean such as a cat, or a deer, or birds etc) - but there is no ethical issue (for me) - mostly animals don't suffer greatly killed "unnaturally" (any more than they would say if killed by a tiger - an animal killed "naturally" like that (as the tiger or lioness will play with the animal keeping it alive to show its cubs how to kill etc so in nature - animals such as deer etc (or a human if caught!) slowly suffocate and bleed to death - far worse than happens to them mostly by humans)); so killed in factories or wherever - will suffer less as they are killed via stun gun, pellet to the head for cattle ((then the major arteries in the neck are cut)), electric shock for pigs and so on) etc) as long as they don't (suffer excessively (and they don't) I have no guilt re eating - guilt and worry are defined by Dr Wayne Dyer in his great book "Your Erroneous Zones" (quite correctly) as useless.

We are talking about those of us who are more or less normal and haven't killed off 6 or 7 million Jews whatever! Or killed a whole family - these extreme cases always raised...

I don't lie awake worrying about what happens to the meat I eat! Natural processes are often far more horrific than any human can dream up...

So I eat my meat with relish!

But stay on your thesis, I suspect that Maps is boozing heavily is off on jaunt around the country for his book about Smith and and so he can stop at all the pubs and eat meat (as long as Skyler isn't watching!) - he especially likes big hamburgers...

I love bacon and eggs...and tomatoes etc

11:28 pm  
Blogger Edward said...

Richard, yeah I get what you mean. I still think we are in a position where we don't necessarily have to follow something just because its in our nature though. Many things in modern society including behaviours aren't natural. But like I said i'm a hypocrite anyway lol. I like my beef too much. I do however only consume free range as this is as natural as I can get. I've seen the battery farmed chickens, the result of not being able to move for most of thier lives drives them to feral insanity and abnormal behaviours. My partner is a psychologist and has shown me that most mammals have the same basic behavioural instincts / cognition. Imagine a human kept in a cage for all thier life not being able to move.

Anyway, not the most charming thought for a Sunday morning I know. I must be off again.

10:49 am  
Blogger Richard Taylor said...

Good stuff Edward - cheers - we shall now all await the Glorious Return of Maps!

8:31 pm  
Blogger George said...

"we like other animals need to kill to survive"

My diet has contained nothing sentient, and nothing that is a byproduct of a sentient animal for the last 9 years, and I'm surviving. Very well, in fact.

Oh, and other hominids are vegetarian (just thought I'd clear up that too.)

I have a number of problems with the "organics" movement as it currently exists in NZ, but endorse the sustainable principles that underlie it.

4:50 pm  
Anonymous Keri h said...

George - no other hominim/ hominid/hominoid is vegetarian. From lemurs to tarsiers to orangutans, insects are devoured with relish, and eggs (and nestlings) are especial occaisional treats.
I would love to learn better. Would you please direct me to sites/other sources of info, that contradict the aboe? Thanks!

10:19 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the store owner had not agreed to remove the publications that so offended you I expect you would have been quite
happy to attempt to disrupt his business activities and in
doing so inconvenience users of his store whom a majority
of which would have no interest in said publications.
I dislike being penalized for things that others take offence
to that were not caused by me. Neo-religious busybodies like
you cause far more disruption than the miniscule good you do is worth.

2:12 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

doesn't every concious being know that 9/11 was a Mossad/C.I.A / Pakistani Intelligence project ...this isn't "fringe" !!!

6:33 pm  

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